Was Angelo Dundee a great trainer or a yes man

That says it all right there. Steward benefits from a very obvious double standard, at least on this forum anyway. He gets credit for the success his fighters have under his watch, but for some reason he's cleared of all blame for their embarrassing failures. If it was someone like Buddy McGirt or Mayweather Sr. who was behind the disaster in South Africa, they would've gotten ripped apart by the entire forum. For some reason, Steward gets off the hook for things that other trainers aren't.

Funny that you mention Hamed-Barrera, as that was another upset disaster that he was involved in. His "advice" for Hamed in the corner consisted of, "Try not to wobble so much when you get hit, it's making you look like you're getting beat worse than you are." atsch When Papa Tito or Jack Mosley say stupid **** like that to their sons, they get ripped apart.

 

Noones denying Lewis was not in peak condition.
see additional comments above.
I dont know what you meant about the Steward comment, he didnt let Lewis call the shots in training. As I said he was tough with him when he made mistakes. I dont know if Lewis actually missed days of training to film a movie or if he was doing it on his off time, but I dont see anything wrong with letting a fighter film a movie after training. Hell look what Pac does on his off time while in training camp.
I dont know what fight you watched but Lewis clearly didnt walk into that right hand he was moving backwards. You acknowledged he was in control of the fight, maybe not as much as I recalled after suffering through it again, but as you said and I believe he was in control and had Rahman a bit swollen up in the face.
As I said, to me it was more Lewis being disinterested in the fight all together, and not fighting with the intensity he needed and as far as his weight. Im sure he trained like a kid getting a title shot after getting KO'd by Rahman, probably harder than he did against Tua, who he was heavier for, and more in line with what he normally weighed for a fight, and Im sure he took the rematch quite seriously as well, the reason for some of the things you pointed out.
A trainer can only do so much getting a fighter up for a fight. I seriously doubt Emanuel Steward told Lewis , hey dont worry its only Hasim Rahman, you dont have to train hard or prepare like you normally do. Im sure it was more like Lewis being uninterested and going through the motions to get through training camp.

 

I could box well against Phil Jackson, he was that bad. Like I said he was hot and cold, and theres no denying he didnt box that well against Bruno and Mcall, which was within a four or five fight series.

Your right backing straight can be a technical error, but not as bad as coming forward telegraphing your punches and leaving yourself wide open like he did with Correa regardless of what you think. Lewis could afford to back straight up at times because of his height and reach (certainly moreso when he was focused), but he did pay the price for it in South Africa.

 

Your talking about a trainer that has a proven track record at devising winning gameplans for fighters that were either at a disadvantage physically or technically. Theres no denying he made a difference for the Lewis Mcall fight, unless you think he and Mcall made that whole story up. Theres no denying that he had Evander Holyfield boxing more against Riddick Bowe, and I also believe he made a clear difference in the way Lewis and Wladmir Klitschko fought, and the proof there would be both became more consistent winners.
You cant even use guys like Trinidad sr and Jack Mosley as examples because theyve never trained another fighter, whereas Steward has a clear track record with multiple fighters far more so than Mcgirt and Mayweather who are also excellent trainers.
That doesnt mean he can make everyone a world champion or a dominating fighter, but to downplay his presence in a corner like you are doing is way off base, the proof is there.

 

Manny Steward's comments before the Lewis-Rahman fight about there being no need for acclimatising to the altitude were ridiculous, as were Lewis's comments that he'd be approaching the fight more seriously if he were fighting Tyson or Klitschko.

 

The thing is, McCall just did what everyone knew could be done against Lewis. It wasn't some deep flaw they'd found in Lewis, it was common knowledge that he looped his right too much and left himself open.
Ok, we've got to give Steward his props for drilling that into McCall, but it wasn't exactly much of a plan to "devise". Dozens of boxing writers and fans had already devised it.

As for Evander Holyfield, I give Evander most credit for fighting Bowe as he did. And again, it was obvious from the first fight that Holyfield should have "boxed" a bit more. I dont doubt for an instant that Holyfield would have done the same thing had he stayed with his original corner.

Trainers getting so much credit for "winning strategies" is often misplaced, IMO.

If anyone wants to talk about Steward being a great trainer, let's talk about Thomas Hearns and the 1980s Kronk team, not his cameo role in Holyfield's corner.

 

Thats just a given about guys like Hearns, and McCallum and Moorer and Mclellan, who people forget he brought up as well.
As for you last paragraph, I coudlnt disagree more. If it was so common knowledge, how come no one else could expose it so quickly and devastating? How was Steward able to get one of the most limited contenders to carry it out? How did he hold Evander back from brawling an entire fight? How come Evander went right back to the same **** in the third fight? To me taking over an established fighter who already has all his bad built in habits, and reprogramming him to defeat a fighter that has big advantages over another, is very impressive, and why you dont see it happening that much. All credit to Steward for being an excellent strategist, who is very good at finding holes in an opponents game to take advantage of. You see the same thing with guys like Futch when he worked with Montell Griffin, Tommy Brooks when he worked with Evander Holyfield, and Freddie Roach with his work with Pac. I guess I just see things different than you guys.
Maybe they both took Rahman a bit lightly, but I dont think the altitude played as big a factor as Lewis' total lack of interest in the fight. Comparing Tyson Douglas to that fight somewhat similar to Lewis did, as a one hit wonder, I would rather go back to Emanuel Steward in my corner than Jay Bright and Aaron Snowell. At least Steward could jockey Lewis enough to staying ahead in the fight and not standing in the center of the ring taking a one sided beat down, because both guys were very flat and lacked intensity in their respective fights.

 

That's exactly what those fighters were looking for when they joined up with him. Grant didn't leave Atlas because he was "too strict", he left him because he's not nearly the trainer he's parlayed himself as and led him to a couple of bad KO defeats.

Just because he has a good jab doesn't mean Lennox has to continually walk into and take them.

That's still a big improvement from what he allowed Rahman to with his jab in the first fight.

But you held his trainer accountable for the mistakes he made against McCall. Why not do the same for the first Rahman fight?

Mostly from a head clash.

When did I "admit" that? I said quite clearly that NO ONE was in control of that fight.

Which came about because he had been rocked by a right hand he had walked into a few seconds earlier.

Meaning one fighter is simply better than another.

And you're simply assuming that Manny must do the same for every camp for every fighter under circumstance?

Manny did.

He allowed Lewis to dictate when they were going to SA to acclimate himself (or not) to the location. Whether you think it turned out to be a "factor" in the outcome or not, just the very fact that they were both so lax about that shows irresponsibility on both their parts, as does other comments/behavior before the fight.

But Roach still made him come here in a timely and appropriate manner.

For the right hand I referred to you at 1:45 he wasn't "moving" at all. He was standing flatfooted and firmly planted on the canvas in front Rahman.

No I didn't. Why do you keep saying this?? I clearly stated at least 3 or 4 times that NO ONE was controlling the fight. Personally, I had the fight scored even (two rounds apiece) before the KO, and Rahman looked like he might be on his way to winning the 5th round too with the previous big right hand he had landed.

And yet that's exactly the kind of cocky **** Manny said before the fight.

Besides, it's not like this was an isolated incident. A number of big name fighters have suffered ultra embarrassing upsets while under Manny's watch in recent years - ie: Hamed-Barrera, Harris-Maussa, Taylor-Pavlik, Klitschko-Brewster, etc. etc. If he gets credit for the big successes that happen under his watch, why shouldn't he get the blame for his role in those disasters? Any other trainer would.

 

That's a pretty ballsy statement. I'd like to know what significant ability/background you have as a boxer that would make you think you could do that.

And what basis is there for saying Jackson was "that bad"? He was a Ring rated contender whose only prior loss in 30-something fights was to Ruddock, who was considered one of the leading HW contenders at that time.

You said quite firmly that he fought the same way for EVERY fight under Correa, regardless of the style/quality of his opponent. That simply isn't true, regardless of how you try to downplay the opponents he did vary his style against.

But he did that too against Rahman.

Basically, when he shows flaws under another trainer you hold that trainer responsible, but when he shows the exact same flaws under Steward you put it down to "Lewis' motivation" and say there was nothing Steward could do. Why not say that the flaws he showed under Correa were a result of his "motivation" as well?

That's like saying "Lewis could afford to let his hands go and leave himself open because of his devasting power, but he did pay the price for it against McCall."

 

But he looked bad in a number of those 15 fights too. There was seldom, if ever a point in his career when he performed consistently after reaching the top level.

But then couldn't you say, "I could box well against some of those guys" like you did with Phil Jackson? :think

 

I dont know how anyone can defend Manny Steward's role in the lead up to the Rahman defeat.
The things he was saying in public about not needing to acclimatise and how easy the fight will be are actually indefensible,- (and actually many commentators made that a talking point prior to any catastrophe hindsight, his and Lennox's laidback attitude to the fight raised a few eyebrows long before any KO punch landed) - considering his role as chief trainer and reputation as one of the best in the business.
Totally indefensible. Very unprofessional.

Any trainer who says something like "you dont really need to bother much with this guy" - and to say it in public, at that, putting it out in the open as some invincible truth - is just not doing his job right.

And I'm not even sure he was being a "yes man" to Lewis. More like he was just as cocky and ego-driven as Lewis was. It's not like he reluctantly chose to let Lewis get away with it, said **** it and took the money. He seemed to be egging Lewis on most of the time. It was a "we're invincible" attitude.
How much was his fee from Hamed-Barrera ? I'm sure that's relevant. And Manny Steward played himself alongside Lennox Lewis in the Ocean's Eleven thing too. So, it's not like he was waiting for Lewis with his bags packed to fly to S.A.

If Manny Steward can get exonerated for his role in the defeat to Rahman and absolved of any responsibility, then it's pretty hard to criticize any trainer ever for any failings in a champion's preparation. It's an open and shut case.

 

See comments above spin man
You're taking a lot of comments out of context and making statements as you see fit. I dont know much boxing you watch but with exception to the Hamed fight, both Klitschko and Harris were in fights they had to take because of either title defenses or televison contracts. Steward came out before the Brewster fight and clearly stated he would have rather had more time to work with Klistchko before taking the fight but he had to for the reasons I mentioned. Harris and Klitschko were working either their first or second fight with Steward. Klitschko after working with Steward came back and completely dominated Brewster.
I wouldnt call Taylor Pavlik a disasterI think he improved Taylor a bit, Taylor just lost, Taylor was a bit overated as was Hamed in my opinion. If anything Taylors gotten worse since leaving Steward.
Personally I think the Hamed Steward was a bad matching as Hamed had a unique style and Steward was trying to make him more of a text book boxer puncher, but most likely he would have never beaten Barrera under any trainer and he knew it, thats why he retired.

 

He looked bad? How in a round or two? He didnt lose nor was he ever in a position like the Bruno fight where he was getting outboxed, or knocked out by a lessor talent for a long long time, years really.

 

Lewis didn't fight many fighters who had Bruno's basic but fundamentally sound boxing ability in his subsequent fights. He fought few really good boxers with the size or strength of Bruno. And I think he would always have had problems with Bruno or someone of that ilk.

lefthook31, when I made the same points a few weeks back you seemed to be in full agreement.

 

No thats like saying Lewis could afford to let his hands go against a guy like Botha, but not against a guy like Tua. Under Correa he was told to "knock this sucka out" in the Mcall fight, which everyone knew wasnt going to happen.

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