Was Barrera out of prime, or were Pac and JMM just better?

Both. But more on the first in the case of JMM. If MAB is still on his prime when he fought JMM, the result should have been different. I'm talking of the Prime MAB who defeated Naz.

Against Pac in their first match . . . I believe MAB was still on his prime then.

 

MAB was in his prime when Pac defeated him... Pac is better than both of them...

 

I have always felt MAB was prime at 122. When he beat Naz, I still felt he was a little past his prime but still an elite fighter. I feel that he was still an elite fighter when Pacquiao beat him the first time as well but a little past his prime then.

Rememeber, he had been in the ring for 12 yrs when he fought Hamed and with his style, that is a long time.

Prime MAB still loses to Pacquiao....not sure about JMM.

 

What done is done..no excuses...:rofl:rofl

 

Barrera was past his prime against both Pacquiao in the second fight and against Juan Manuel Marquez. He would have had a better shot to beat them in his prime or his best at 126 considering his prime was really at 122.

The thing with Barrera, Morales, Marquez, and Pacquiao is that they are all so great. And at their best, everybody could have beaten everybody.

 

Imo the Barrera who fought both Pac and JMM would have defeated Hamed in much the same fashion.

Even the Barrera of today would defeat the version of Hamed that he previously beat.

Hamed made it too easy for Barrera.....headhunting one punch at a time. You dont do that against great fighters.


Having said that, I'd classify MAB as a great fighter, but an overrated one by HBO mainly due to the win vs Hamed who imo was nowhere near a great fighter.

I believe both Pac and JMM defeat any version of MAB.

Pac would always have the speed, quickness, and power that so troubled MAB.

......and though the gap in the speed and quickness dept narrows with JMM in comparison with Pac, Marquez imo in a prime for prime match is faster and quicker than MAB......but more importantly, JMM's skills and know how beat a prime MAB.


How I'd rate the mini-fab four prime for prime......


1.JMM

2.Erik Morales

3.MAB

4.Pac


Pac because of styles beats MAB each and everytime however.....he does'nt have the skills or the right hand to counter Pac's best offensive weapon (straight left) that JMM and Erik Morales did.

 

Question . . . is how can you justify that he is not.

He won via TKO against Enrique Sanches; won a UD against Morales and Tapia; then won another TKO against Kelley after defeating Hamed via UD.

 

I agree with KG and Kirk. Barrera was past his prime when he lost to Pac, but I think Pac beats him prime or no prime. Its not a good stylistic matchup for Barrera. Still my favorite current (or recently retired) fighter though.

 

All interesting but easy questions to answer as far as I'm concerned.



1. I thought JMM-MAB was competitive, but no, it was not close imo.
.....the judges each gave JMM the fight by wide scores, as did I and most in the media.

I posted quite a bit about it when the fight came about, but imo had JMM-MAB been fought 4 or 5 years back, it would have imo been even more one sided in favor of JMM.
For this fight, JMM had no choice but to be the aggressor. He could ill afford to let things come to a posing boxoff where there was little punching action.
So because MAB was the champion, and crowd favorite, Marquez really had no choice but to play the role of the aggressor.

Had JMM stood back and looked strictly for countering opportunities (which is what he does best) MAB would have done the same, leaving a posedown with very little punching exchanges......uneventful rounds that JMM could have very well won, but because of little action in a round most likely would have found the judges scoring for the champion and crowd sentimental favorite.
As Nacho Beristein stated beforehand, "we can little afford to wait for MAB to get off first, we're going to have to take it to him."
......which is exactly what JMM did. JMM got off first, MAB countered, and JMM finished just about most of the exchanges countering MAB's counters!

In essense, JMM had to get MAB in countermode in order that he could counter him!
Marquez started and finished the exchanges, and he landed the harder more telling blows throughout.
Competitive, but not close on the cards.

Imo, had the fight taken place where both were relatively unknown so that there is no bias in scoring either way due to there popularity, JMM would have sat on the backfoot and boxed the pants off of MAB!

I know I'm coming off as someone who has little respect for MAB.....but its not that really. I have great respect for MAB....he's a great fighter.....but my comments and opinions weigh more to how good I feel JMM really is!
Marquez adapted to the situation and circumstance and out of character took it to a pretty good counterpuncher himself in MAB and did more than well!

As far as who was more faded or out of prime. I say they were about similar. I think they both have lost quickness and speed at about the same ratio.
....but they're both so good that each can get away with it and still remain p4p candidates.

The stamina dept is something that JMM has retained more in his older age than MAB, and its likely because he's had less mileage on him as far as ring wars than MAB!

Both great fighters, but JMM imo is a more complete fighter with a better variance of punches.

.....btw....the knockdown of JMM at the hands of MAB was kind of flukie......MAB was being battered in that round, and I feel JMM thought that MAB did'nt have much in the tank.
.....and note that JMM was more conscious of not getting caught by MAB's power hand (left hook)......the right hand caught JMM as he was throwing his own right, and caught him by suprise......

.....You can see by the way that he went down, his body did'nt go limp...Marquez actually tried to put his hands foward to keep from falling.....its the reason that Jay Nady who was at a bad angle missed the punch.....by the way Marquez reacted to the punch, it looked like he had slipped.
.....in any regards, JMM was'nt put on ***** street by that punch or even the illegal punch that followed!



Let this be a note to all posters......dont ask me about JMM if you dont want a long and defined response......
.....I actually refrained and held back some.....I can go on and on in analyzing JMM!

Hope that answered your question Kirk!

 

Mab might be out of prime but remember he gave jmm a good fight, even dropping him although the ref did not counted it as a kd. Possibly the last greatest performance of mab as his last fight with pac, the latter clearly dominated him. Mab is clearly out of prime but not shot, as he withstood pac's flurry and went with him to the distance: that is an enough evidence..

 

DIVAC:


i can understand you're "analysis" of JMM... but putting Morales ahead of MAB is interesting...i remember MAB beat him twice. As of now i wont argue with you about putting JMM ahead since PAC and him are fighting soon and then we can continue this. did you put morales ahead of MAB because he has one win against Pac and MAB dont?

1. PAC
2. MAB
3. Morales
4. JMM