Was Bernard Hopkins still elite in his forties ? Vote !

you know Hopkins and Floyd handpicked brilliantly.. They knew when to fight people and when. Guys of the past fought everyone more without the thought in mind.. No he was not elite in his 40s.. He lost to Jermaine Taylor. he was very good and knew the styles to fight.

 

Hopkins, to introduce him, had massive breadth f skills in his 40s which kept him world class. But he also had massive deficiencies in natural lung power compared to his youth, partially hidden by his freakish fitness.

His frame was no longer as strong as it was - he could get thrown around the ring by men in his weight class.

And he could no longer drop anyone with his now weaker power punches who had a better chin than say, joe calzaghe, someone he could still deck. But tougher chins than joe calzaghes, like dawson, kovalev tarver, pavlik, shumenov etc he could not dent.

Calling him elite is a stretch if you define elite as one of a handful of fighters who by and large dont get beat by anyone but that small group of elites.

Lets break it down for evidence of being elite -

Now hopkins had lost to Taylor, who wasnt really elite = ZERO EVIDENCE

He marginally lost to Calzaghe after clearly outboxing him, and he wasnt elite = ZERO EVIDENCE

He lost to Dawson AT LEAST once, and probably was on the way to getting beat twice until the DQ. And he lost pretty one sidedly, though he did well for his age. Was Dawson elite at that the time? perhaps. He lost to Kovalev, who was probably elite, but lost badly. Two elite losses at most then, which dont offer any positive evidence to support him being elite. And two world class losses, one marginal, which offer no evidence either.

Who did he beat at that time? He beat Tarver (world class), Pavlik (world class), Shumenov (world class) and a sub-level filler.

On their own, these word class wins confirm that hopkins was certainly world class - but you need to add something elite or near elite to that in order to substantiate an argument that Hopkins joins those elite. ANd there is NOTHING to add. If you count these wins alone as evidence of elitism then LOTS of fighters are elites.

He also lost easily to Joe Smith Jnr. ANyone who thinks that an elite is someone who loses badly to a lowly ranked "international" belt holder needs their head seeing to.

Besides which, no 40something man has ever been, or ever will be, elite, in a cardio sport. Its just simple biology, you are missing too much of your potential lung power by that time.

 

Is IQ was off the chart. This why I rate Calzaghes win so much over him. He was a wily old fox that could con fighters half his age. Stronger fitter fighters. He changed his style to accommodate his age also.

 

I also think he could've stopped Hopkins. Got to comfortable out boxing him

 

He didn't stop anybody at light heavy, did he?

Surviving 12 rounds against Kovalev is a testament to his veteran wiliness (and Kovalev's willingness to follow JDJ's conservative game plan). Doesn't really make him elite though.

 

Extremely impressive accomplishments but "elite" seems a bit much. I don't see the over-40 version of Hopkins measuring up well against truly great (or even very good) middleweights and light heavyweights.

 

he did well stylewise, but what made him not elite was his susceptibility to speed. Taylor or Calzaghe.. he handpicked very well. he knew who to fight, and the ranks were not very good..

 

^^^^ This a good post ..imo .. and I agree

 

My post is about loss of form in 40s. Why are you trying to miraculously change it into a post about a 30year old? Everyone can see that you attempted it - you just need to say why you did it when you are ready to explain your lie attempt. thanks.

surely getting more powerful on an adequate sized frame on should increase your stopping power? why you claiming the opposite. explain your lie. cheers.

You need examples of people going up to the same degree, not Money or Duran who went up

I see you claim this to support your purpose today, but in reality you know full well that ESBers have been defining for a long time, elite as the handful who can beat all except perhaps other elites.

So what is the purpose of you lying that I started this definition? Explain your lie, cheers.

It goes without saying that the top lb-for-lb boxers are the elite of the elite.

he held a magazine title. Perhaps you won the "Just Seventeen" magazine best letter award one time, it doesnt mean you won the Booker Prize.

The only thing thats CERTAIN is he was not at 36/37 and not only you know it, BECAUSE YOU PERSONALLY HAVE CLAIMED JOE WAS MIORE PAST IT THAN HOPKINS. WHY THE CHANGE OF STANCE TODAY. And WHY on earth DO YOU LIE TO EVEN YOURSELF?
SURELY A TOUGH LIE TO PULL OFF THERE, but I'm not it putting it past you.

Durani is one the greatest, but he aint elite today is he? do you capiche the effect of passing of time?

why you lying again? Your title is CLEARLY AND BLATANTLY Hopkins in his 40s.
Explain why you are lying here too, thanks.

so you once again try to change the title of your thread from its original.

No this is about being 40something. Do not lie again.

The only possible concession is that bernard was possibly last time ever elite at 39 and 40 on getting beaten by taylor, due to the marginal nature of the losses.

 

cuchulain refers in the original post to specific years. That's the context. Quite obvious really.
Also, ad hominem attacks are generally quite bad form, you might try using arguments.

Back to the topic. Outside of Ornelas (?), a shot Jones Jr. and Smith, he didn't fight any unranked fighter- amongst them THE lhw champ, THE smw champ, a fellow Top5/10 p4p fighter and a few beltholders at lhw. He beat most of them and only the very best beat him - and two of those losses were close. So, I don't see how he was not elite. At the tail end he certainly wasn't p4p material anymore but he still was one of the best in the division beating solid contenders in Cloud, Murat and Shumenov. I don't see how there is a debate, especially not if we only consider the years the OP refers to.

 

He was elite in his (weak) 175 pound era. But he was not an atg lightheavy.

 

That's probably fair though the truly elite 160-175lbers of his era weren't losing to Jermain Taylor (twice) and Chad Dawson (would've been twice but for the strange ending of the first fight).

 

True but those guys where already in retirement at his age or getting beaten by Danny Green while being shot.

 

Couldn't agree more, although the Taylor fights were at 160, which you indirectly alluded to anyway. Just goes to show everyone how weak his 175 era really was.