Was Braddock win over Baer a rival of Ali's win over Foreman?

It was more shocking for sure.

While Ali was the underdog against Foreman, thee were people who called it correctly.

 

I think Alis win was a fluke and Foremans better but no one then or now would dispute Alis a great champion and one of the best HWs ever. No one was outraged Ali got the title shot instead of x,y or z. Anyone beating Foreman would have been a stunning upset at this point in time.

While Max had beaten Schmeling and Carnera badly and you could make some comparisons between him and Foreman the shock over Braddocks victory had more to do with Braddock not being seen as a worthy title contender. When in truth he was probably a top 3 HW who fought at LHW most of his career where his speed and power didn't translate nearly as well. But his win over John Henry Lewis was considered a robbery and Lasky wasn't really a title eliminator worthy fight. It'd be viewed more like if Jose Roman had beaten Foreman.

On a side note I've been looking for documentation if John Henry Lewis was some sort of HW title claimant during Braddock reign because of said robbery and Braddocks inactivity(like Schmeling and Farr). The reason for this is during this period 4 of John Henry Lewis's HW fights were planned for 15 rounds before he fought Louis which in this period indicated some sort of special signifigance.

 

No because you’re talking about two elite ATG’s including IMO the greatest of all time greats vs. two people who were not exactly ATG’s. Aside from sheer punching power .. I have said often that people here gravitate to and often overrate big punchers … IMO Braddock at his best was a better and more skilled boxer than Baer.

 

Certainly yes. Baer wasn’t as good as Foreman? Well the distance between the two is less than those versions of Braddock & Ali.

 

No. Baer was hot and cold. He hated fighting and clowned around a lot.

 

First off, Muhammad Ali and George Foreman were not living in the midst of The Great Depression of the 1930's. Both Ali and George Foreman were not fighting for a large purse for survival to feed their loved ones and to keep the lights on, their fight was purely for prestigious purposes. James J. Braddock was a big underdog and was underestimated by champion Max Baer. Braddock had some hungry mouths to feed and provide for, a big motivator for any man that loves his family. Baer thought that this fight would be a walk in the park, but he soon thought otherwise as the bout progressed. Sometimes when a fighter goes into a bout with nothing to lose but everything to gain, he finds that inner strength to victory, much like Buster Douglas in his title winning bout against the great Mike Tyson on the night of Feb 11 1990.

 

Great post, P!!!!!

 

In my opinion Braddock beating Baer was a bigger upset than Ali beating Foreman.. and I do agree with others that believe Baer took this fight for granted as a walk in the park.

 

And Spinks beating Ali was a far bigger upset than the Foreman fight.

 

I think Braddock over Baer was the bigger upset, by a wide margin. You would be hard pressed to find any boxing person who would rank Foreman above Ali. By the same token, even though Braddock defeated Baer, you would be hard pressed to find a boxing person who ranks Braddock higher than Baer on any all-time Heavyweight list. I would say that the Douglas win over Tyson is more comparable to Braddock over Baer in that regard.

 

Not sure but I think Braddock was a 10-1 underdog, correct?

It’s a really good question because it should (or at least I think it should) divorce any perceived gaps in quality between the combatants for each fight, meaning the quality of Baer and Braddock vs that of Ali and Foreman.

Upsets are perceived based on the combatants who are facing off against one another and how they are seen to measure up in relative terms.

Also, there were a few who thought Ali could/would beat Foreman - but the majority of those people saw it by decision I think.

I don’t think anyone imagined the fashion in which Ali did win - let alone anyone predicting a KO around the 8th round mark.

Had Ali boxed and moved as many thought he would, then it might’ve turned out somewhat differently and so much worse for Muhammad.

So, an upset perhaps shouldn’t just be measured broadly as a W against long odds - it should also factor the complexion and how the fight was ultimately won.

Like Buster Douglas - he didn’t just defy the odds of 42-1 against a W - he also did what many thought was impossible - he beat up and knocked Mike out - a huge turn around on most pre fight beliefs - some pundits affording Buster as lasting as little 90 seconds against Mike.

Ali’s win over Liston was a bigger upset than the win over Foreman imo, and it would perhaps approximate more closely to Braddocks victory over Max. I think Ali was a 7-1 or 8-1 underdog.

As @PRW94 stated, punchers do often become overrated - and if you pick them to win, you will no doubt be often looking to an emphatic, short route victory.

In hindsight of course, Braddock was better than he was perceived - struggles external to the ring often impacting performances inside the ring.

I think Braddock was on a bit of an odds defying roll also going into the Baer fight and Max was a loose cannon due to his clowning and lack or true commitment - the impact of the latter components being a hidden variable until the fight actually commences.

So, for it to work out as it did, Braddock had to put his best foot forward while Max ultimately performed under himself - and Braddock’s notable durability also stood him in good stead.

Braddock was 5-1 under vs Louis. Although Jim lost, the complexion of some of the fight might’ve been seen to provide for some mini upsets - like the KD of Louis and Braddock’s competitiveness otherwise - at least for a while.

Up until the KO, Louis hit Braddock with punches that would’ve levelled many other fighters. He displayed an amazing set of whiskers. It took a lot of accumulated punishment and an ATG right hand to finally see Jim off.

By fights end, Jim’s face was a mess. He left absolutely nothing in the ring when he fought Joe. Putting skills aside, he fought like an ATG against Louis otherwise.