Was Corbett a genius innovator? Did he take boxing to the next level?

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by mrkoolkevin, Jul 3, 2018.


  1. mrkoolkevin

    mrkoolkevin Never wrestle with pigs or argue with fools Full Member

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    Is this article accurate? (Part 1/2)

    http://coxscorner.tripod.com/corbett.html

    James J. Corbett, “Turning Point in Pugilism”
    Cox's Corner

    By: Monte Cox

    Anyone can learn to lay a brick but it takes a master brick layer to turn a corner. James J. Corbett was a revolutionary boxing master who turned the corner in the sport of boxing from the rough and tumble days of the bare knuckle era into a modern sport of skill and finesse. “Gentleman” Jim was the first heavyweight boxer to win the championship of the world under Marquis of Queensbury rules. As a fighter Corbett was more than an innovator he was a rare boxing genius who was considered the greatest fighter of his time. After successfully defending his title against Charley Mitchell the Sept 10, 1894 National Police Gazette reported, “Corbett is still champion. He proves to be the greatest fighter of modern times.” Bob Burrill, author of Who’s Who in Boxing wrote “Corbett marked the turning point in ring history, replacing mauling sluggers with the new school of faster, scientific boxers.” Jim Corbett was a trailblazer who helped develop boxing into the sport of skill that we know today. There are three factors that made Corbett a great boxer and a revolutionary figure; his fleet footwork, the development of his left jab and hook and his understanding of ring psychology.

    Before the arrival of Corbett onto the scene boxing was very much a sport that resembled no holds bared fighting more than it did modern boxing. “To be sure”, said Bob Fitzsimmons, who fought in both bare knuckle and gloved matches, “the rough and tumble boys were game.” But they were strangers to what he called “the leg qualities.” Corbett’s footwork was a revelation. His use of quick sidestepping, circling, maneuvering and defense demonstrated that one could hit without being hit in return.

    Rex Lardner said of Corbett in The Legendary Champions, “No heavyweight ever approached him in the ability to ride with a punch (and so remove part of its sting); slip a punch; make his opponent lead before he was ready and then counter with piston like jabs; feint an opponent into committing a defensive maneuver and then attack the newly vulnerable area; or drift just out of reach of a punch a split second before it reached its intended target. No other heavyweight and few in the lighter weights ever approached his clever, gliding, instinctive footwork.”

    Joe Donoghue, who had worked years earlier as Corbett’s trainer stated in Nat Fleischer’s book “Gentleman Jim” – The Story of James J. Corbett, “good left-hand performers were rather scarce, especially among the big fellows.” Donoghue recalled how the fighter had discovered that his left hand had less strength than his right. Corbett worked on his left in painstaking fashion shooting that hand into a cushion to improve his stamina and his accuracy and by practicing his technique in sparring sessions. In time Corbett would have a left jab unrivaled by anyone in the game.

    Corbett is also credited with being the inventor of the left hook, one of the deadliest punches in boxing. According to legend it was during a match with his arch nemesis Joe Choynski that Corbett first used a hooking punch with his left hand. The two met on May 30, 1889 and the bout was broken up after four rounds by police but not before Jim suffered a broken right thumb. They met again a week later on June 5th this time fighting on a barge near Fairfax, Ca. where the bout could go on uninterrupted. They fought with 3 ounce gloves. In the third round Corbett using only his left hand broke two knuckles on that hand after landing a hard blow to the head. Now what was Corbett to do? Being a smart fighter and innovator Corbett began to arc his blows using the thumb side of his left hand so that his fore knuckle connected, saving his broken knuckles. At that moment he had invented the left hook. Incidentally Corbett won the bout on a 27th round knockout.

    At the age of 59 Corbett sparred three rounds with heavyweight champion Gene Tunney. Grantland Rice, one of the great sportswriters of the era saw the exhibition and wrote, “Tunney was on the defensive. Corbett was brilliant. He still had bewildering speed! He mixed up his punches better than practically any fighter I’ve ever seen.”

    Tunney who spoke often with Corbett said Jim could talk better about boxing than any other man that he had ever known. Corbett was always talking about defensive boxing. Tunney stated, The Saturday Evening Post Magazine February 10, 1940, “He told me he used to draw diagrams of defensive boxing problems, charting the position of feet and the movements of footwork. He'd diagram his position in a corner of the ring, and his opponent's position, and sketch the way he would feint and side-step, eluding a rush. It was something like a dancer charting foot positions of a new dance--always a defensive dance with Gentleman Jim.”

    Corbett made his reputation by fighting a grueling 61 round epic draw with the great Peter Jackson. The “Black Prince” as Jackson was known was considered by many as the best fighter in the world. At 6’1” 210 pounds Jackson was considered a magnificent specimen of fighting prowess. The reigning champion John L. Sullivan refused to fight Jackson by drawing the “color line” saying, “I have never fought a Negro and I never shall.” Corbett had no such reservations. The betting was 5-1 on Jackson. The two met on May 21, 1891 at San Francisco, Ca.

    In the opening session Jackson swarmed all over Corbett. Jackson tried to knock Corbett out right in the first round. Corbett had never had to move so quickly to escape his opponents blows before. He ducked, danced, clinched and tried to keep Jackson at bay with quick jabs but was only partially successful at doing so. Jackson pressed the fight in the early rounds. In the 16th a hard right to the body by Jackson hurt Corbett. Then Corbett began to counter Jackson with his own jabs to the body. Corbett used his left shoulder to press against Jackson on the inside to keep from getting nailed by Jackson’s powerful uppercuts. Corbett also began countering Jackson’s uppercut with snapping left hooks. In the 28th round a flurry of punches had Jackson in trouble, but by the 30th round both men began to wind down and tire. The bout then became one of endurance and it was eventually called due to exhaustion on the parts of both men and declared a draw. One thing was for certain, the only fighter who was going to get better at this point was Corbett.

    Corbett was a firm believer in ring psychology, that one should never show fear and put all doubt in the opponent. In his bout with Peter Jackson the black man had a superstition regarding that he always enter the ring last. Corbett refused. The two finally agreed to enter at the same time. Corbett ducked in his head like he was going to climb into the ring and so Jackson climbed in, and then Corbett ducked out and entered the ring last to upset his opponent. A well known and true story is when Sullivan and Corbett had went night clubbing together some time prior to Corbett's fight with Peter Jackson. In each bar Sullivan would announce how he could lick any man in the house. Corbett finally tired of the tirade and stood up to Sullivan and so much as told him to shut up. After that Sullivan became more respectful towards Corbett. It is, says Corbett, “one of the most important things to get over in a fight: the short-ender should always try and convince his opponent that he himself hasn’t lost heart and feels sure he will be the victor.”

    The death knell was sounded on an era when Corbett laid on Sullivan a sound boxing lesson when he won the heavyweight title. Corbett easily frustrated the bullish rushes of Sullivan with speed, maneuverability, fast jabbing and quick counter punching. Corbett made Sullivan look like a wild swinging Neanderthal as he literally boxed circles around Sullivan. By the fifth round a right hand had bloodied Sullivan’s nose. Corbett’s jabs kept Sullivan off balance and continually speared his face, while an occasional right hand to the body wore him down further. By the 14th Sullivan was offering little resistance. In the 21st round a right hand to the jaw knocked the once mighty John L. out for the count. Boxing had turned the corner from the old bare knuckle brawling days of “the raw uns” to the new age of scientific boxing.

    Corbett lost the title on an upset to the freakish hitter Bob Fitzsimmons when caught by the now famous “solar plexus punch,” but not before Corbett gave Bob a thorough boxing lesson along the way. Corbett’s left jab befuddled Fitz in the early rounds of the fight. The film footage that exists also shows Corbett landing some pretty good body shots on several occasions. Corbett bloodied Fitz’s mouth, dropped him in the 6th round for a short count and dominated him with speed, mobility and clever out boxing. Fitzsimmons was not the boxer that Corbett was but he had his own bag full of tricks. Corbett had been pulling himself out of range of Fitz’s right hand all night. Suddenly Fitz feinted with his right and then let go with his left to the body. Corbett went down paralyzed. His wits were about him but he was unable to move. That was how Corbett lost the heavyweight title.
     
  2. mrkoolkevin

    mrkoolkevin Never wrestle with pigs or argue with fools Full Member

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    (Part 2/2)

    Jim desperately wanted a rematch because he knew he had clearly dominated Fitzsimmons up to that point. Corbett told Robert, “That was a lucky punch. You’ll have to fight me again.” To which Fitzsimmons replied, “I will never fight you again.” And he never did. It seems Fitz knew that he was really no match for Corbett in the boxing department.

    Corbett did get another shot at the heavyweight title to Fitzsimmons eventual conqueror Jim Jeffries. Corbett completely outclassed Jeffries. He was amazing that night, boxing with superb skill, frustrating Big Jeff and making him look like an amateur. For twenty-three rounds Corbett shelled the boilermaker with an array of clever punches and movement while pitching a virtual shutout. He had the fight won; only two more rounds to go and he'd have the championship back again. Corbett was already reading the headlines of his victory when Jeff caught him coming off the ropes with a big left hook that flattened him.

    There is no question that James J. Corbett was a peerless ring general who took the art of boxing to the next level. The great light-heavyweight champion Tommy Loughran was a favorite of Corbett and Jim used to go see all of his fights. Loughran in an interview with Peter Heller said that Corbett told him he used to dream of doing the things that he saw Loughran do in the ring but never had the chance to do them. When Loughran questioned Jim about what he meant, Corbettexplained that he use to work in the gym on the things that he saw Loughran perform in his fights but because he had so few actual fights he never had the chance to do them. Loughran who at the time had about 175 fights understood what he meant. Corbett enjoyed watching Tommy because he could appreciate what he was doing while most of the audience had no idea. Loughran said, “I would be using footwork or stepping in and out, and the one thing the fighter wouldn’t realize was that I was inching in and I would hit him and he wouldn’t know how it was done. But Corbett could see that watching from the audience, but the other people, not even the seconds, didn’t know.” There are some fighters that are difficult to appreciate unless one really understands all the subtleties of boxing, Tommy Loughran was like that, and Joe Louis although different in style is another. If not for Jim Corbett there may never have been a Tommy Loughran, Joe Louis or modern boxing as we know it.
     
  3. mrkoolkevin

    mrkoolkevin Never wrestle with pigs or argue with fools Full Member

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    I don't get it.
     
  4. The Funny Man 7

    The Funny Man 7 Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Too busy to read through the whole article at the moment, but my initial reaction:

    People forget that Ring Magazine began as a Boxing AND Wrestling publication, back in the days when the kayfabe line between authentic Catch as Catch Can shoot matches and scripted pro-wrestling was incredibly blurred. This was true at in the JL Sullivan days, the Corbett days and for sometime thereafter.

    My theory is that there was significant cross-pollination between boxing and Catch as Catch Can Wrestling (wrestling where you can win by submission or by a pin). I think this explains why all fights of a certain era resemble John Ruiz' lowlight reel. That, and because if you're Battling Nelson who is fighting Ad Wolgast for 42 rounds and doing so at even a relatively tame modern pace, your brain would be yogurt by the end of the fight.

    Getting to the point, I think Corbett represented the first departure from this slow, meandering, clinch oriented style of boxing. The divorce was finalized with intlligent combination punchers like Benny Leonard and Gene Tunney.

    Although the idea of throwing more than one punch at a time doesn't sound revolutionary in a modern context, in an era where boxing was marked by waltzing, grappling, and occasional punching, it was a big deal when a guy like Corbett or Jimmy Wilde could stab guys with a jab from distance and lace together fluid combinations.
     
  5. BitPlayerVesti

    BitPlayerVesti Boxing Drunkie Full Member

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    I've never been convinced he actually innovated much. He was a clever, tricky and extremely talented fighter. I'm sure he came up with some clever tricks and moves of his own, and he inspired some of the next few generations, but I don't think his actual influence is that deep. I've seen very little convincing attributed to his invention.
     
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  6. KuRuPT

    KuRuPT Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    I believe he was innovative in the sense that he wasn't viewed as the super big strong guy who was the toughest guy in the world. He was viewed as a banker, and didn't fit the stereotypical image of what the HW champion should be. Plus, he didn't really engage in fights like others had before him. He wasn't concerned about being the toughest guy or taking hits to deliver his own till somebody goes down... He subscribe to, hit and don't be hit as much as possible, which didn't make him all that popular when he beat John L. So yes, I would say he was innovative in some ways and certainly when it came to the perception of what a boxer should be.
     
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  7. janitor

    janitor VIP Member Full Member

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    No, in a word.

    Corbett had a tendency to re write history in his favor, and one aspect of that was that he liked to present himself as a great boxing innovator.

    In practice I think that he was more of a Roy Jones or Jimmy Slattery type boxer, who could out box anybody else, but did a lot of it on reflexes rather than technique.

    Sullivan always got angry when Corbett claimed to have invented the left hook, saying that the punches had always been the same for as long as he could remember it.
     
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  8. BitPlayerVesti

    BitPlayerVesti Boxing Drunkie Full Member

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    Daniel Mendoza.
     
  9. BitPlayerVesti

    BitPlayerVesti Boxing Drunkie Full Member

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    It's basically all based on an absurd caracture of bareknuckle boxing. It worth noting Jem Mace had a dancing style that was sometimes considered similar to Corbett's apart from being more offensive. And given Mace trained the likes of Jackson and Fitzsimmons, he deserves far more credit in terms of influence and innovation.

    If before Corbett they mean the early 1700's then maybe yes. There was rule changes that removed some of the grapling, but they were coming in and had little to do with Corbett, and actually comtemporaries noticed a decline in science with MoQ rules actually favouring brute force more than the LPR ruleset did (which is why so many smaller fighters were successful under LPR rules), and probably why Sullivan prefered MoQ

    I have serious doubts this is an accurate reflection of Ruby Rob's position considering he was trained by bareknuckle boxers Jem Mace and Larry Folley. Either way it's false. The science of self defence by Edmund Price from 1867 says the feet are the next most important part to your arms, it says swift movement is always an advantage, it goes into extensive detail about parrying. Going even further back Daniel Mendoza's boxing manuel from the late 1700's says it's always better to dodge than parry, and for exmple says if your against an aggressive unskilled opponent you should fight defensively and counter. Even Captain Godfrey's manuel from way back in 1747 speaks about the importance of being able to move in and out quickly, and says it's better to lack strength than lack skill.

    Round blows were well known about, though not used as much, by bareknuckle boxers. However it was often remarked that unskilled fighters would throw a lot of round blows.

    Anyway in Daniel Mendoza's drills he includes

    So they they had left hooks over 100 years before. Though I'm pretty sure it's really far older.
     
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  10. BitPlayerVesti

    BitPlayerVesti Boxing Drunkie Full Member

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    No. Early bareknuckle boxing allowed pretty free grappling, over it's history the rules were revised over and over, restricting the degree to which grappling was allowed, then the MoQ rules further banned it, but with the lineage of bareknuckle it wasn't enforced much early on, but slowly became more enforced.

    Not really. A big reason there was less combo punching (though this is way exaggerated), was the risk of damaging hand due to less protection. You notice in bareknuckle manuels, that where to hit was a lot more precise.

    Like I said though, they weren't morons and knew how to string multiple punches together, for example this is from when Jem Mace fougth Tom Allen in 1870
    It wasn't revolutionary then either, they just had good reason not to do it so liberally with longer fights, and less hand protection. But then plenty of modern fights are also cagey, and then you have Battling Nelson's war with Joe Gans which has quite a lot of combos. In the footage we have of Fitz fighting Corbett both throw combos.
     
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  11. Dubblechin

    Dubblechin Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    "At the age of 59 Corbett sparred three rounds with heavyweight champion Gene Tunney. Grantland Rice, one of the great sportswriters of the era saw the exhibition and wrote, “Tunney was on the defensive. Corbett was brilliant. He still had bewildering speed! He mixed up his punches better than practically any fighter I’ve ever seen.”

    The three-round exhibition isn't included below, but Corbett and Tunney throwing punches for the camera a year before Tunney won the heavyweight title is there. Tunney appears to be humoring an old-timer. The Corbett uppercut is particularly embarrassing. Corbett telegraphed everything. Apparently, all the fighters did in his era. Every time you see some old timer like an old Sullivan throw a punch for a camera, they all reel back before launching a punch.

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    By Tunney's day, the classic boxers didn't telegraph their blows. I'm sure Corbett looked like a "magician" at the turn of the 20th century when everyone swung wildly like Peter Courtney.

    By the 1920s, Corbett was a relic ... and his "amazing boxing skills" were "problems" that needed "correcting" before you got in the ring with someone who would punch you back.

    That Corbett uppercut ... boy. Not good.
     
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  12. janitor

    janitor VIP Member Full Member

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    "I learned plenty"

    "He was smarter than Benny Leonard"

    Gene Tunney!
     
  13. BitPlayerVesti

    BitPlayerVesti Boxing Drunkie Full Member

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    Why on earth would you pick someone as absymal as Peter Courtney as the standard of boxing?

    I guess modern boxing must be even worse.

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    We know for a fact they all didn't just swing wildly, because straight punching was massively preffered in bareknuckle boxing.
     
    Last edited: Jul 3, 2018
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  14. FrankinDallas

    FrankinDallas FRANKINAUSTIN

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    Corbett was a poncey Calslappy who boxed in a thong. Even Erroll Flynn looked more dangerous than Corbett.
     
  15. Seamus

    Seamus Proud Kulak Full Member

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    Invented the left hook, huh?