Was Gassiev the most overrated active heavyweight?

a) Saying that majority thought Zhang beat Hrgovic is false.

b) Threads claiming he would beat some of the finest all-time greats or buldorize a division exist.

c) Rudenko did not run, and is an excellent example of why people measuring inches and pounds to claim Zhang would waltz through some other fighters are less than in touch with the history of the sport.

d) Combination of bad gas tank, slow feet, and low output? I could name plenty. He had his flaws exposed before, in spite of some of his fine, immensely threatening qualities, and it will happen again.

 

Gassiev has been a huge disappointment I thought he would've done so much more.

 

1. Impressive wins is a strong word for anyone other than the top 5

2. Wallin isn't more proven than anyone in the top 10 other than Anderson (who I've been highly critical of). No way I'd put him above anyone else other than Anderson, and I don't think Anderson should even be top 10 ranked (and have said this). That includes Sanchez who at least has the usual suspects on his resume plus an (overrated) prospect. Wallin didn't even have that. His claim is a loss.

3. Joshua doesn't need to travel, why would he? I'm not a fan of his but I think he's earned his spot as the person others should travel to. And he just fought the actual # 1 back to back. before his two "soft touches".

As for Gassiev being overrated, maybe my American bias and not hearing much about him clouds the talk about him with me but I don't think so, I hear far more about Wallin, Wallin interviews etc.........than I have Gassiev. He simply hasn't been someone that I hear anything about

 

Again, Fury's major threats by and large will never have the chance to fight him so people have little reason to hype them as they will never get the chance to beat Fury. There is virtually no chance of Zhang ever fighting Fury which is part of the reason people are unhappy with how his career has panned out. Would have been a lot better if he'd fought more guys like Zhang. But too late now.

 

There's nothing on Breazeale's resume to suggest a top 10 rating was warranted when he faced Joshua or really at any time in his career. So why is bating him a big deal?

Whyte had no real reason to face Wallin so hard to call that a duck. If Whyte's ducking Wallin than he must also be guilty of ducking Sanchez, Bakole, Makhmudov, etc.

 

https://www.boxingforum24.com/threads/what-is-an-atg-zhang-discussion.710538/
https://www.boxingforum24.com/threa...big-kos-and-suddenly-hes-an-atg-zhang.710520/
https://www.boxingforum24.com/threa...tg-in-history-except-for-fury-and-ali.710413/
https://www.boxingforum24.com/threads/zhang-vs-muhammad-ali.710340/

First ones I could find. You can see posters noting on the amount of threads with Zhang pitted against some of the history's finest (there was definitely a Lennox Lewis discussion as well, and a lengthy thread on him potentially being the hardest cracker ever.) Majority rejecting those notions was not my claim -- my point was those threads exist and were entertained all too profusely (if there is debate to be had, then it should be had by all means; merely expressing my disappointment in frequency of claims made on shaky basis.)

No Holmes thread I could find though.

And yes, I agree that not stopping Andryi is nothing to be ashamed of. He is reasonably mobile, changes head slots, and has an iron chin. My point is, he is more of a throwback heavyweight size-wise (you can cite his highest lbs carried into the ring, but in shape he would by all mean be fitting even the depression era, and a lot of it a belly) and the remark is aimed at people entertaining the notion of Zhilei supposedly beating the likes of Ali based on 6'6 and 20 stones alone, which is an extremely reductive, limited way of looking at things when we've clearly seen small man with humongous power and granite chin, and big man who hit like waffle, and couldn't reall take a cracking. That on top of how nuanced combat is, and how Zhang's shortcomings are there to be exploited (as they were) made the initial wave of Zhang threads post his destruction of Joyce a little bit on the rash side.

So there it is.

Corrie Sanders, in spite of his handspeed, accuracy, and power, never rised above his gas tank and chin, or perhaps his own lack of discipline. Upset over Wladimir (who had already lost to Purrity, and was yet to be elevated by Steward) is counterbalanced by lack of any other significant win and lossess to Vitali and Rahman (not counting the knockout loss early in his career.) Dangerous, incomplete fighters are not a novelty, and you can highlight the uniqueness of almost every time-transcending fighter in a much more relevant and accurate manner than how Zhile is being advertised (6'6, 20 stones, as if on a scale of the century smaller, lighter fighter did not display granite chin and murderous power ;decades of experience, as if it wasn't common for older fighters to even out the loss of physical fitness with their accumulated knowledge, except Zhang fought almost nobody until recently; Olympic medal, except numerous medalists did not translate the success into the professional ranks; amateur pedigree, except it's counterweight by lack of quality opposition in the pros.) He remains very threatening, and I rate him highly, but he is nowhere near some mythical beast. We've seen him outworked, outthought, and outmaneuvered.

Zhang is in my mind more dedicated, but he still has flaws which were exploited, and he never fought anybody whose skillset, nimbleness, and experience matches that of those men he deemed to boulderize through.

As to you other points (reread your initial response; good point of Louis avoiding southpaws, something I would be happy to discuss on the Classic):
a) I presume the site you linked showed some controversial results. Disagreed on it being a good metric (unlikely that anybody submits another card on subsequent rewatches; anybody can post his card there and disappear); I would much rather read through the thread which regularly appear on this forum, with posters with consistent history of scoring sharing their thoughts. I (yes, yes, it's just my scorecard) never managed to score it for Zhilei, despite of four rewatches (a delightful fight), and in spite of Zhang receiving an initial two points lead in a round he was losing, based on a rabbit punch/pull knockdown on a wet canvas. I'll try to go through the Search function of the Forum on the weekend.

b) George Foreman definitely wasn't low output. He was one of the best, most eager finishers in the history of the sport, and speaking of finishing, you do not become one of the most famous ring generals by having slow feet. Foreman knew how to cut ring like no other, and he was consistently finding on the ropes smaller, much faster men than the buffs of today. Bar some fights where he tried to suffocate the other man with pressure, it was clear he could be quite fast (rewatch his early career; he uses his feet a lot) and his entire defense was very proactive, requiring decent handspeed and reaction time.

The only time he showed stamina issues, was against Ali and Young, two defensive wizards he faced in a hostile environment for a fighter of his kind (one that throws more slugs, tends to finish in a volume, likes to employ his physical strength in his style and is more muscular in general), that is the basin of Kongo, and Puerto Rico. He did not show lack of stamina in any other instance, and on the contrary stopped Gregorio Peralta in the 10th round, in spite of the fact that Goyo was never stopped at the heavyweight, having faced Bonavena, Ron Lyle (times two) and a younger George.

The 6'3, 218lbs remark is my main issue with how Zhang is being sold. Foreman, Shavers, and Liston have feats of punching power that would shame 6'6 fighters through the history. When comparing the sport's most exceptional individuals, each ought to be analyzed on an individual basis. The general division of fighters by weight works extremely well when applied to a greater sample, and when ensuring the proper safety and fair division among thousands of fighters. It's outright ignorant (thought definitely not irrelevant) when comparing the exceptions.

 

Disagreed.

a) You can literally see a few sample threads claiming or seriously debating just that. You literally have posts in them expressing how the Zhang hype is getting out of hand. I search for samples of the pile of hot garbage that were the post-Zhang-Joyce II threads for you to mentally check out and type: "I thought so." I never claimed majority of the forum or polls agreed on Zhang demolishing some all-time greats, and if we really want to be precise, I said "the likes of" Holmes, Ali, Lewis, while noting how it's still reasonable to think he wins against the likes of Sullivan or Marciano.


b) Holmes lost in the amateurs. Do you realize the hypocrisy of continously bringing up Holmes being stopped by a southpaw in the amatuers? Zhang was knocked out cold by Anthony Joshua, lost to Solis, and likely only won the Silver medal you bring up so much, because Glazkov pulled out with an elbow injury, the very same Glazkov who already beat him before. It's a futile, self-defeating game to pull dirt from early stages of a fighter's career.

Southpaws are annoying, and easy to look poor against. A well known fact. It's unlikely for fighters like Holmes or Louis, who faced elite representation of numerous vastly different styles through their careers, to fall completely flat against a Southpaw. Being a lefty is an attribute, yes, but not a dooming factor. Fighters without numerous wins over Southpaws on their resumes still overcome them, thought with more hiccups.

And seriously, what elite southpaws emerged that began troubling Vitali and Holyfiled? Give me a break. Ancient Holyfield dropping a decision against Byrd, or losing against Moorer in a fight in which he was more or less dying because of steroids is your example? Vitali having to pull out of a fight he was winning because of a potentially career altering injury? How about: Rahman, Tubbs, and Vitali beating Sanders; Ibeabuchi and Wladimir dominating Byrd, and him needing a gift against a shot, one-handed Golota; Holyfield brutally avenging the freak loss to Moorer, and Micheal being stopped by Foreman and Tua?

Southpaws became more common, but they existed through the history. Flash Elorde, Young Corbett III, Tiger Flowers, Vincente Saldivar, Horacio Accavallo, Karl Mildenberger. They are trickier yes, but they are not impossible to prepare for an beat. Definitely not enough for the phrase 6'6 20 stones heavy hitting southpaw to be a serious argument against historically elite opposition.


b) Every single sentence you write on George Foreman is hillariously off the mark. The only instance of him gassing badly happened in extremely high humidity, high temperature environment, meaning in places where the natural cooling system of the body -- sweat -- is severely compromised. Once you overheat, you are mostly done for. Foreman with his strength based style, power punches, and intense finishing attempts was especially vulnerable to that, as opposed to Ali and Young who both knew how to conserve energy, remained on the defensive, and weren't nearly as muscular as Foreman to begin with. Not to mention in Zaire he was hell bent on trying to knock Ali out (Moore also noted Ali holding George's head down was an energy sapping tactic) and in San Juan he played with Jimmy (Don King wanted the ads revenue; Young was still not taken seriously; Foreman noted during a Q&A at the Oxford Union that he was playing with Young) until the moment he decided to knock him out (which he actually nearly did, as Jimmy claimed the hook in the 7th had him nearly out cold) and dooming himself in the process. I could add him looking off under Clancy post-Zaire, but it's irrelevant to the point.

He already had a fantastic feat of carrying his power late into the fight in stopping Peralta.

And yes, Ali was extremely tough to hit clean, and had excellent control game even post-exile. Archie Moore literally called him an escape arist of the highest caliber.

d) Sanders was, as far as I understand, brought up as an example of an unique mix of qualities (somewhat similar to Zhang) allowing a fighter to beat an ATG. Well, Ross Purity is another man who beat an all-time great. Except Wladimir did not undergo the Steward transformation during either of those bouts yet, and beating him back then, while impressive for Sanders, definitely does not translate into potential dominance against the history's finest. He lost to Vitali, he lost to Rahman, he was knocked out by Tubbs in two. He had clear, visible shortcomings, which lead to lossess during his career. Zhang has equally clear weaknessess, which was my point.


e) If you want to prove the official result of the Hrgovic-Zhang (UD in spite of Zhang essentially getting two free points) is wrong and that significant part of the forum scored it for him, then the burden of proof is on you. Search for threads, find the RBR. I'll actually do it as well. For me every rewatch is a delightful spectacle in which in between the rare but powerful counters from Zhang, Filip outboxes, outmaneuvers, and outworks him, in spite of it being his step-up fight, and in spite of mourning his father.

f) Not entertaining the fat and inch worship. If I happen to find a thread in which I debated it in a through manner, I'll make sure to send it to you. You are definitely underselling Liston, Foreman, and Shavers though. If you think their feats, accolades, and reputation does not measure to that of 6'6 big boys, you are dead wrong, and that's the point I'll gladly elaborate on if needed.