I find this the same lame criticism of Harry Wills. "He just sat on his rating." So let me get this straight: Its ok for a champion to abuse his championship by sitting on it and fighting weak competition but when a guy fights his way to a #1 rating and marks time while his managers are stalking a title its a crime? Hes not doing everything he needs to? The simple fact that hes fighting tooth and nail to force Moore to defend against him is the point. Is there a higher mountain to climb that Im not aware of? The only guy I see that Johnson could have potentially fought was Anthony and frankly Im not sure why that fight didnt come off. If someone here can tell me its because Johnson ducked it and not Anthony then we can have a discussion. Everything else is just conjecture. Of the guys Moore was fighting Johnson was already beating the guys that beat them. You can sniff at a guy like Bowdry but why? He had wins over Hinnant, Anthony, and Ray. His only real glaring loss at the time were the two to Henry Hank who dropped back down to MW. When Hank finally decided to settle at LHW Johnson beat him. And frankly the entire discussion regarding Bowdry and that being a path to least resistence is ridiculous because immediately after Johnson beat Bowdry he was very public in stating that he wouldnt feel like a champion until he beat Moore. He pursued a bout with Moore even then and still Moore refused a unification. Moore simply wasnt going to fight Johnson. Period. In fact, when Moore fought Rinaldi the second time there was so much doubt about Moore's ability to make weight that Johnson was paid $5,000 to sit as an alternate and take Moores place if Moore failed to make weight. Johnson would have then fought Rinaldi for the undisputed championship. Johnson was ready and willing to fight, that isnt even up for dispute. Ive already laid out why guys like Durelle and Pompey werent realistic fights due to both losing more than winning after Moore and Durelle in particular abandoning the division. And while we are discussing those foreign fighters just keep mind who keeps saying in Moores defense that boxing is a business (which jaded term has no part in the lexicon of anyone who wants the best for boxing or athletic competition). What was Johnson supposed to do? Go to Germany or Italy in an era where those two countries has the most corrupt organizers in the history of the sport and fight for peanuts so he could get robbed? How many times did Hecht, Hoepner, Schoppner and Rinaldi fight in the USA were purses were higher than anywhere in the world? Ill help you: Hoeppner fought here once and lost via 2 round KO, Schoppner fought outside of Germany once and lost to Rinaldi, Rinaldi fought outside of Italy 13 times and only won two of those fights and if you watch anyone of his fights in Italy its easy to see why, Hecht fought outside of Germany twice, winning against a nobody in a France and losing to a nobody in Italy, Pompey's record away from home is equally bad. To pretend these guys were out there grinding to get their title shots is ridiculous. They were protected Europeans fighters of the era from the same tradition of Americans using them as soft touches. They had weaker competition, poorer training, etc. They simply werent as good. Had they come over here and fought you might have actually seen Johnson fight some of them. But America was the mecca. Europe was where champions went to vacation and pick up easy money. And frankly, I think the poll illustrates, not many people would have favored any of those guys chances over Johnson or feel they did more than him to deserve their shots.
Pompey was top 10 ranked so was Anthony,Durelle ,and Rinaldi, and the upper half of the top ten not just scraping in. It's not like Moore was emulating Wilder and defending against unranked nobodies imo. I've said Johnson was better than them, but they were also ranked contenders, not fighting Johnson for a 6th time is hardly the crime of the century.
Surely it's equally bad for a #1 contender to do so as a champion. The #1 contender might have earned his right to face the champion, but behind him are contenders who want to move up the ladder too.
there are so many false points made-to deal with them one at a time Harry Wills--there is no comparison with Wills. Wills was fighting in the era of the color line, which restricted his options. Still, he was the one fighting top contenders in 1924 & 1925. Wills was reported by Rickard in Time Magazine as signing a contract to fight anyone of Rickard's choosing with the winner to get Dempsey. Wills fought Firpo, but did not get the shot at Dempsey. In 1925 he fought the high ranking Weinert and KO'd him. Dempsey wasn't fighting at all during these years. Most importantly--Wills had never fought for the title at all. Johnson had already been KO'd in a title shot by Moore. For me, that shifts the ground a bit concerning Johnson. This is an argument for a guy getting a second shot versus other high-ranking contenders getting a first shot.
Johnson "is fighting tooth and nail to force Moore to defend against him." Tooth and nail obviously did not include beating the other top contenders. No sense giving us bulltwaddle about it. Johnson just wasn't fighting the top men at lightheavy from 1956 to 1960.
I am interested on the both sides of the fence debating points. For example Wednesday 5:10 PM klompton2 posts-- "Ratings are not based on what someone will do in the future. If you can see into the future, let me know. When Moore defended against Pompey, and Hecht was rated ahead by the NBA it was because Hecht was more proven and had more experience. Dispute that? I don't think you can." Yesterday at 3:50 PM klompton2 posts-- "I've already laid out why guys like Durelle and Pompey weren't realistic fights due to both losing more than winning after Moore, and Durelle in particular abandoning the division." The first was a reply to my pointing out that Pompey KO'd Hecht in January of 1957. I think we can all surmise why seeing into the future suddenly becomes okay. Just as an aside, how did Johnson's top lhw opponents from this era do in the future after fighting Johnson? Clarence Hinnant--0-9-1 Von Clay--7-13 Sonny Ray--3-9-1 Jesse Bowdry--2-9 Oh. As for disputing Pompey being better than Hecht. I can. I think he had beaten better fighters in Dave Sands and Jimmy Slade than Hecht ever did. His statistical record was a rather good 31-2-3 with 22 KO's. And he reversed his two losses with KO wins.
"Hecht fought outside of Germany twice, winning against a nobody in France and losing to a nobody in Italy." The French nobody was Charles Colin who was rated #6 by the NBA in the December of 1956 and March of 1957 rankings you posted. He was also in the Ring yearly ratings for two years. The Italian nobody was Artenio Calzavara who was the #9 ranking contender in the January and February 1958 NBA rankings you posted, and also appeared in the Ring rankings. He was the European light-heavy champion for about a year from 1957 to 1958. Ranked fighters are nobodies? European champions are nobodies? But Sonny Ray (lifetime 22-18-7) is a real scalp who proves someone the number one out there? I am certain I'll get a lecture on the ratings meaning nothing, but then why do they mean so much for Johnson who is sitting on the sidelines during this whole period?
"What was Johnson supposed to do? Go to Germany or Italy in an era where those two countries has the most corrupt organizers in the history of the sport and fight for peanuts so he could get robbed." Well, at least we are getting past the smoke and down to the fire. Johnson was afraid of losing in Europe. Okay. As for the corruption in Germany and Italy, I am certain Frankie Carbo and Blinky Palermo would have been outraged. It is rich to belly-ache about corruption in other countries during an era in which the Kefauver Committee exhumed all sorts of corruption in the USA. But to paraphrase the old Superman TV intro, The USA was the unique home of Truth, Justice, and honest boxing decisions. Not like those shifty Europeans. With all this European corruption, I wonder why Johnson risked his title in Berlin in 1962.
But thats not really what I was saying was it? My argument was very simple. That idea that these guys were fighting each other to get their title shots while Johnson sat on the sidelines and watched was ridiculous. Durelle wasnt rated before his DRAW with Anthony. The same month he DREW with Anthony to somehow break into the ratings Johnson was made the number #1 contender. Durelle kept his ranking by stopping Hinnant... The same Hinnant that Johnson had obliterated with one punch six months earlier. Where is the motivation for the number 1 contender to fight a nobody who barely scraped into the ratings and then got knocked out immediately after by Anthony? After Anthony Durelle retreated to Canada and only stayed a fringe contender by the grace of beating Mike Holt? Ever see that fight? I have. Holt kicks the **** out of Durelle (which Durelle later admitted) when Durelle has Holt briefly down, or what would have been briefly Durelle literally walks up to Holt while hes on one knee with the referee standing right there and lands a full on right hand blast to the face. Then watch the referee do absolutely nothing, NOTHING, not even say anything Durelle. But Durelle was Canadian just like the ref and Holt was a foreign fighter... Durelle was nothing, Johnson had all of the leverage and wasnt going to go to Canada when he had the bargaining power. Thats why I say AFTER Durelle fought Moore... Because Durelle was nothing but a loser until giving the great Archie Moore hell BUT the problem is that immediately after fighting Moore Durelle abandoned the division. So yes, in context, my argument makes perfect since and is in no way monday morning quarterbacking. Nevermind the fact that again, Johnson Unlike the idea that a bunch of protected foreign soft touches that didnt deserve their ratings were justified in getting a title shot because they had win over a fringe contender here or there AFTER losing to Moore (nevermind that to a man they all lost more than they won once the bloom was off the rose.) But hey you guys wanna believe that Johnson wasnt the top guy for YEARS, wasnt ducked by Moore, wasnt more deserving of a shot than nobodies like Durelle, Ppmpey, and Rinaldi then so be it. I guess we are watching two different sports. How did Durelles, Pompeys, and Rinaldis? See thats the problem with trying to argue apples to apples. If you want to compare Johnson to those three you lose out real quick as my poll illustrated. If you want to compare their opposition your argument falls apart as well. And at the end of the day you are left with one very striking fact: That for the better part of five years Johnson was Moores biggest threat and Moore refused to fight him. Even when Moore had his titles stripped and really had nothing to lose but prestige and everything to gain if, as his nuthuggers argue, he just had Johnsons number he still refused to fight Johnson and instead chose lesser competition and even then couldnt always win. Thats a pretty damning commentary on the arguments of those who think Moore was justified in ducking his mandatory. Apparently the NBA correctly think you dont get rated at LHW for beating MWs (Sands). Thats just not the way it works. That was the only rated contender Pompey had fought. Hecht had beaten several contenders rated at LHW to that point. So while you may THINK Pompey was better his record doesnt illustrate that he was or should be rated higher which is why he wasnt, regardless of his win over then unrated Slade who had won 2 of his last 7 fights and who Harold Johnson had to soften up for Pompey to actually beat... See how that works. Theres that pesky name popping up again. But I guess Johnson was just sitting on the fence all that time wasnt he?
I've never disputed Johnson was number 2 to Moore's number one, or said that Archie just had his number, but Moore was defending against ranked contenders, inferior in quality to Johnson though they may have been. I'll sit back and let you and E.M. battle this one out, good debate!.
It is a great debate!! I've been following it since day 1(one of the best I have seen) .. K Cobra seemed to have dropped out and EM taking over from there.. Klompton is extremely knowledgeable on this particular topic and has seen the fights he is referring too .. EM brings up good points as well ... But for me it's just a matter of asking yourself one question.. No matter what was going on in the era or what was going on in Moore's mind or even Johnson's mind for that matter ... Did Johnson deserve another shot at Moore by looking at Johnsons' ranking?? .. And it really doesn't even matter if Moore wanted it or not ..or even if Johnson was willing to risk losing again to Moore ... that is speculation to me, although some here argue it is factual... but by looking at the numbers only .. I would say Yes he deserved another shot