Was Harold Johnson undeserving...

edward morbius · Sep 19, 2017

Jimmy Slade.

Yes Johnson defeated Slade, as a matter of fact the first time between Slade's two fights with Pompey. I don't know what this has to do about whether Pompey or Hecht was the superior challenger for Moore in 1956.

As for Slade not being rated, he was rated #5 by both the Ring and the NBA in 1953 when Pompey defeated him.

As for Sands, he and Pompey both weighed 165 for their fight and indeed Pompey's victory mattered in the rankings, as it should have, as they were fighting at lhw.

The Kentucky Cobra · Sep 19, 2017

1. Jet Feb. 23, 1961.

Moore wants Johnson, says he is willing to fight him for $200,000.00. This was after Johnson won the NBA Light Heavyweight title against Bowdry.

2. New Yorker Nov. 11, 1961.

Johnson currently declares that he is no longer interested in fighting Moore. "Archie is an old man, and they can put you in jail for beating up old men," he said not long ago.

Moore countered. "I have always looked after Harold and said nice things about him. The trouble with Harold is that he is under the impression the clock of time has stopped. As soon as the young man makes a reputation for himself, I'll be glad to give him another shot at my title."

Moore is the recognized champion where it counts—in New York, Massachusetts, and California, and abroad—the National Boxing Association, which presides over the small-time, or remaining 47 states, decided late last year that he was not defending his championship often enough and declared the title vacant.

So it seems to me after getting the NBA belt, Johnson suddenly wasn't interested in fighting Moore anymore. And yet another article where the NBA's stripping of him initially wasn't took very seriously. It wouldn't be until 1962 that Moore would lose recognition as he challenged Lavorante and entered the HW ratings.

1. [url]https://books.google.com/books?id=PLEDAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA57&lpg=PA57&dq=archie+moore+johnson+nba&source=bl&ots=Q0VgOtSDAL&sig=6vXOOfsav8U7EAgPmR-7BW92NXQ&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjRofWP-bHWAhWG7YMKHdaqAi8Q6AEIVDAK#v=onepage&q=archie%20moore%20johnson%20nba&f=false[/url]

2. [url]http://thestacks.deadspin.com/how-archie-moore-fought-forever-and-became-boxings-folk-1679521162[/url]

edward morbius · Sep 19, 2017

The Kentucky Cobra

Whatever else about the topic of this thread, that was one of the most interesting profile articles I have ever read, and gave real insight into Moore. Thanks for posting it.

Mendoza · Sep 20, 2017

klompton2 said: ↑

Harold Johnson was considered Archie Moore's #1 challenger for the better part of 5 years after his title shot loss to Moore in which Moore had to come from behimd with a stoppage win. Moore refused to defend his title against Johnson on the grounds that in five fights he had defeated Johnson four times. 3 times in 10 rounders, once in the title fight, and losing a 10 round decision. Instead Moore chose to defend against fighters like Yvonne Durelle, who had 19 losses and 2 draws when he fought Moore, and relatively inexperienced Europeans like Rinaldi and Pompey. Moore was heavily criticised throughout his reign for not defending against his #1. Poster Kentucky Cobra has attempted to defend Moore by essentially co-opting his argument and saying that Moore's prior victories over Johnson which took place 2 yrs before Pompey, 4 yrs before Durelle, and 7 years before Rinaldi disqualify Johnson as a viable contender. This of course that during this same period Moore fought Maxim 3 times defeating him without trouble each time (and tried for a fourth fight), fought Howard King 5 times winning all easily, fought Buddy Turman twice, winning both easily, Willie Besmanoff twice, and Bert Whitehurst twice winning both by stoppage. Clearly Moore had no problem rematching fighters multiple times with no rating on the line and nothing to lose provided the opponent wasnt a threat. He then posted an article by Sports Illustrated alleging that Johnson was not only an unworthy challenger but also undeserving of his ranking and only had it by virtue of unsubstantiated mob ties and/or a bias of Philadelphia commission. Of course this completely ignores the fact that when Johnson fought Julio Mederos, a fighter who the mob wrested control of from Jake LaMotta and pushed him as manager, Johnson was poisoned before the fight resulting in a loss yet somehow the commission that supposedly favored Johnson suspended him resulting in him actually being dropped from the ratings for a time. I personally believe that it would have been one of boxings great crimes if Johnson went from 1954 to the end of his career without getting another chance to win a title and I also feel, as did most bystanders at the time, that Moore was resting on his laurels and not interested in really hazarding his title. Essentially he was running out the clock. I submit that regardless of his past losses to Moore Johnson was a much more dangerous challenge to Moores title than men like Durelle, Rinaldi, and Pompey, and that the combination of Moore aging and Johnson improving (he only had two losses from 54 to 64, the poisoning incident and the controversial loss to Pastrano which was a one round swing when Johnson was 37 yrs old) would have made Johnson a great threat to improve on his previous performance by Moore which saw him drop Moore and beating Moore on two cards going into the 14th round, certainly a much greater threat than the other three fighters mentioned above and I would pick Johnson to defeat those three fighters head to head as well.
Click to expand...

Johnson would have been more Dangerous than anyone Moore defended against during that time.

edward morbius · Sep 20, 2017

Mendoza said: ↑

Johnson would have been more Dangerous than anyone Moore defended against during that time.[/QUOTE

But we all knew that going in. After all, Johnson is a Hall of Famer, who ended up with the championship after Moore left the division.

What this thread has done for me is lesson my opinion of Johnson a great deal after actually examining his record. I have seen no good argument that the contenders Moore defended against were not the best out there other than Johnson. Hecht? Pompey KO'd him. Schoppner? Rinaldi beat him. Even the weakest of the bunch, Durelle, earned his shot with a series of victories over rated contenders. As has been pointed out, they weren't a particularly impressive group, but they were what was available for Moore.

As for Johnson, he fought far weaker competition during the 1956 to 1960 period. Things looked up with Machen in 1961 and Jones and Scholz in 1962. Still, his career in the 1960's is marked more by whom he didn't defeat than whom he did. He lost to Pastrano. He didn't fight Mina, Peralta, Foster, or Torres. For a man who was active from the mid-fifties through the late 1960's, he just didn't meet very many of the top lhw.

In fairness, Johnson was scheduled to meet Mina, but when Mina had to withdraw because of an injury, he fought Pastrano.

For me, this thread examination less exposed Moore than it exposed Johnson.
Click to expand...

edward morbius · Sep 20, 2017

The machine went bonkers in the above post. That was my reply to Mendoza's "Johnson would have been more dangerous than anyone Moore defended against" post. It seemed to slop my reply with his comment.

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Was Harold Johnson undeserving...

Was Harold Johnson a less dangerous and less qualified challenger for Archie from 1956 until 1961?

Johnson would have been more Dangerous than anyone Moore defended against during that time

Johnson was no better than Durelle, Pompey, or Rinaldi

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Was Harold Johnson undeserving...

Was Harold Johnson a less dangerous and less qualified challenger for Archie from 1956 until 1961?

Johnson would have been more Dangerous than anyone Moore defended against during that time

Johnson was no better than Durelle, Pompey, or Rinaldi

edward morbius Boxing Addict Full Member

The Kentucky Cobra Boxing Addict banned Full Member

edward morbius Boxing Addict Full Member

Mendoza Hrgovic = Next Heavyweight champion of the world. banned Full Member

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