Was Holyfield vs Bowe I an example of ...

Holyfield came into the second fight with the right fight plan and necessary bulk, but the outcome of the series relied far more on Bowe than Holyfield.

Riddick Bowe came into the first fight at a solid 230lbs with ambition, a plan and sharpness. Evander would probably never have beaten the Bowe of the first fight. When Holyfield had real success in the slugfest it was more a case of Bowe being comfortable there, knowing he would get the last say.

The first fight was not close, Bowe gave Holyfield a battering.

Come the second fight and Bowe's lazy habits where for all to see on the scales and in his appearance. Even still, that fight was very close with Bowe fighting sluggishly, and Holyfield arguably being cut a break with the 'fan-man' just when Bowe seemed to be finding his foothold.

A super entertaining heavyweight trilogy, but it was more a case of Bowe having the power to prevent Holyfield from having any real success rather than vice versa.

 

I think it was a combination of factors-

Stupid fight plan on Holyfields part.

Bad stylistic match up

And as you say size disparity

It is worth noting however that Hollyfield was never really a puncher so he lacked perhaps the most crucial equalizer for a smaller man taking on a bigger man. It would be interesting to see how Bowe would faer against a Dempsey, Louis or Tyson by contrast.

 

A much older Holyfield was able to last the distance against Lennox Lewis who is as big as Bowe and regarded as a better puncher so it seems odd he would have trouble with the less powerful Bowe. Something aside from size and strength must have been an issue.

 

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great display by Bowe. i was glad to see the reign of Holyfield over. it was very uneventful

 

Bottom line is that Holyfield on his best day could not outfight Bowe. But, he could outbox him. Just like Carbajal v. Gonzalez. After the first fight, Humberto realized he needed to box. That's what Evander did - the style that was most likely to be effective. Evander made a big mistake of trying to bomb with Bowe in the third fight and it cost him yet again. Don't punch with a puncher, especially one that is way bigger than you and can throw more punches than you can. Exploit his weakness, which is lack of speed and footwork.

 

Holyfield-Bowe I was an example of Holyfield's immaturity as a boxer. Had he stuck with his strategy and not gotten into a brawl, he'd have widely out-pointed Bowe.

A good small man can beat a good big man, IF he has a better strategy than the big man. Put Joe Louis or Sonny Liston against that Bowe, and they'd devastate him.

 

Exactly. A height disadvantage can become a height advantage; Frazier had a massive height advantage over Ali on the inside, for instance.

 

Um, no, that's a pretty odd interpretation of what I wrote. The argument had no relation to whether Holyfield was too big or too small to beat Bowe, but whether, whatever size he was at, he still had enough stamina to brawl with Bowe for the full route without breaking down, which he didn't. But I do suppose a 205-pound man who didn't have to add 15-20 pounds of muscle bulk to get to that weight and was in great shape would endure better, so in a round-about sense this could be interpreted that way.

Frazier ended the first Ali fight with gas left in the tank. Marciano ended the first Charles fight with gas left in the tank. Those matches were grueling 15-round wars. If you're sagging and looking on the edge of exhaustion at the end of a fairly hard-fought-but-not-exactly-furiously-contested 12-rounder, then you apparently don't have stamina on those guys' level. Yes, a big, heavy guy you can't move around can prove an exhausting opponent, but, especially if he's old and fat with a huge belly and poor stamina, he gives you plenty of room for recuperaiton, unlike a little guy who throws a ton of punches and won't let you breathe.

No, I don't think a cruiserweight Holyfield could've outslugged Bowe either. I'm not sure he would have lost more decisively, though; he would have the stamina to hold up better and would prove quite a pesky, relentless little bugger for Bowe to try and take down.
Holyfield was never going to beat Bowe in a brawl. He needed to box, like he did in the second fight, and to great effect. I think we can agree, though, that Holyfield was not the greatest slugger of all time among smaller heavyweights.

WOW! Sorry. You're usually an intelligent and reasonable poster, but I think you must not have thought this particular sentence through very much before typing it.

Yes, but a smaller man like Qawi, who is busy, relentless and never stops coming or lets you rest also makes for an especially tiring opponent.

I agree.

Short answer: yes. You're kidding yourself if you think Bowe, or anyone in the last 30 years for that matter, would wear down and outlast Rocky Marciano, and I think Dempsey would have a good shot at finishing him early before the question of size-wearing-you-down came into play.

Willard was better than you're making him sound. Johnson was not particularly fat when they fought, and although he was old, he was the type of fighter who performs well into old age and went on to perform pretty successfully for many years afterwards, although he was never given another real big fight to test whether he could make the bigtime again. He certainly still had top boxing skill, good speed and good stamina.
And anyway, I absolutely think Willard was at least as strong and could take and deliver a harder punch than Bowe, besides being even bigger than Bowe was, and Dempsey obviously had no trouble moving him around or hurting him.

Me neither(there isn't any, really). I listed them as "possibles" because, according to the descriptions I've read, they could both give and take great deals of very hard punches, and Langford was known for good speed and slippery defensive skills as well.

And remember that this entire discussion is based only on guys who could outslug Bowe. If we go into who could outbox him, the field broadens considerably.