Was Ingo Saved By A Long Count v Snoek?

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by Tonto62, Jan 5, 2022.


  1. janitor

    janitor VIP Member Full Member

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    They don't even remotely contradict them.

    A referee has an element of power, which can theoretically be misused, without actually violating the rules.
     
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  2. red corner

    red corner Active Member banned Full Member

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    Correct you are, he got up dazed and the ref could have waived the fight off but the final bell saved him.


    "The 12 round bout, billed as another step in Ingemar Johansson's march to a return shot at the heavyweight title, ended with Johansson staggering to his feet, his eyes glassy and his arms hanging at his side. Johansson, 200, apparently had the better of the dull fight until the final minute. He concentrated on his left jab to pile up points, and never landed his famous right hand. Brian London, 206, carried the fight but he could not land a solid punch until the final seconds when he stunned Johansson with a left and crashed him to the canvas with the right. The count had reached four and Johansson had just lurched to his feet when the bell rang. Referee Andrew Smythe of Ireland, the sole judge, awarded the fight to Johansson." -Associated Press

    Although Johansson was the European heavyweight champion, this bout was non-title and scheduled for 12 rounds due to the EBU deeming London an unfit challenger for the European title.

    Post fight comments:


    • "I would have stopped the fight if the bell had not saved Johansson. He could not have continued." -Referee Andrew Smythe
    • "His kid sister sure must be better than that." -Brian London, in response to a remark made several years earlier by Johansson when London had signed to fight Patterson for the title. Johansson scoffed at the time, "My kid sister can beat London with one hand tied behind her back."
     
  3. Tonto62

    Tonto62 Boxing Addict banned Full Member

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    Marciano ,walked to a corner under the mistaken impression he was entitled to a standing count.He stated this himself was he lying? The referee Harry Kessler mistakenly began a count quickly realised it did not apply in championship contests and stopped.
    " Marciano is bulling his way in,what else does he ever do?
    When Moore seems to magnetize his jaw into just the right position and sinks his right into it.
    AND MARCIANO IS DOWN
    He's hurt and dazed and for a strange second at the count of four,he seems to forget that he's in a fight.
    Moore triggers another right to the jaw.I've never seen Marciano look in worse trouble.
    Moore jabs his man at will and blood comes from Rocky's nose,and Marciano curls his tongue at it.
    Marciano clubs clumsily to the body and gets hit and hurt by a right uppercut.
    He has lost the round by the length of Broadway.
    And now you see why Rocky is such a great champion.
    He had been hurt and dropped and continuously confounded,and it might be that they had told him in the corner to watch his step. But instead he went out like an ice-breaker, ploughing its way through Polar floes." Peter Wilson ringside for the Marciano v Moore fight. 48 hours later Wilson interviewed Marciano on the radio for the programme,"Sports Report".
    "You may remember that I wrote that when he was knocked down,for a strange second,as he gets up and the count of four,he seems to forget he is in a fight"Wilson.
    "I asked Marciano about this, for he seemed to almost walk over to the ropes as if he could have a breather.He said,"Aah but you have forgotten that in America there is a compulsory count of eight and even if you get up the referee still continues the count up to eight before letting the count continue."Marciano.
    "I said;" "Yes I know all about that,but you don't have that in world championship fights."Wilson.
    " Marciano said.No you don't understand.We have the compulsory count...'
    And then he paused and he said." Gosh,of course you're right,it doesn't work in world championship fights." Chapter 4. "More Ringside Seats."Peter Wilson.
    I've proved
    1.Marciano got up and headed towards the ropes thinking he was entitled to a standing 8 count.
    I've also proved the referee began a count.
    Now it would be nice if you could find it within yourself to admit you were WRONG

    But! I do not hold out much hope of that!!!!

    ps I do not think the referee Harry Kessler acted in bad faith,I believe he just made human error.Kessler was a milionaire wealthier than Marciano and Moore combined, he just got it wrong for a nano second .I don't think it made any difference to the outcome of the fight.
    Though Moore was convinced till the day he died that he had been the victim of a great injustice,that Kessler, by stepping briefly between them when Rocky arose,had taken away his chance to drop Marciano for the full count.
     
  4. Tonto62

    Tonto62 Boxing Addict banned Full Member

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    If you deliberately count slowly you are violating the rules.
    • If you score a knockdown of your opponent, you must go to the farthest neutral corner while the referee makes the count. If you "floor" your opponent, you cannot hit him when he's on the canvas. A floored boxer has up to ten seconds to get back up on his feet before losing the bout by knockout.



      • After being knocked down, a fighter has up to 10 seconds to rise to his feet before losing by way of [url]knockout[/url] (KO); if a fighter successfully rises, but does so quickly, the referee must reach a minimum count of 8 (mandatory 8 count) before he resumes the action; though uncommon in most bouts, a referee may be permitted to give a standing ‘knockdown’ count (standing 8 count)
    Notice the words TEN SECONDS in both interpretations?
    If you give a slow count that is say 17 seconds you are violating the rules of boxing There is no argument about this whatsoever!

    The referee in the Johansson v Snoek fight officiated in just three pro fights with time lapses of 7 years and 4 years in between them. Don't you find that strange?

    He never refereed another fight after the Johansson bout.

    Don't you find that curious?
     
    Last edited: Jan 7, 2022
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  5. janitor

    janitor VIP Member Full Member

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    I am afraid that you are wrong.

    You are not violating the rules of boxing if you deliver a count of more than ten seconds, and indeed most counts are more than ten seconds.

    It would be almost impossible to make sure that the count was exactly ten seconds.

    A referee is theoretically within their rights to deliver a seventeen second count.

    Of course a corrupt referee could abuse this right, and if it was thought that they had done so to give a fallen fighter an unfair advantage, then it might be appropriate to take some sort of action against them.
     
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  6. Journeyman92

    Journeyman92 Mauling Mormon’s Full Member

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    Lol Mcvey.
     
  7. Woller

    Woller Active Member Full Member

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    I have always felt that Frank Sikora counted very fast.
    In Denmark we once had a referee who counted so slow that most of the fans had left the arena before he got to ten.

    Now an 8 count plus wiping the gloves and the "come to me and hold up your hands" takes between 15 and 18 seconds.
    (Specially in England if the home boxer is taking the count.)
     
  8. Journeyman92

    Journeyman92 Mauling Mormon’s Full Member

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    To summarise all people count at different paces lol.
     
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  9. Tonto62

    Tonto62 Boxing Addict banned Full Member

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    If a referee deliberately favoured a fighter by giving him a long count then he is in violation of the rules of boxing.I have never suggested that all counts are an exact ten seconds but any human being with half a brain has the ability to toll off a count with as near as damnit second intervals. One and two and three etc in a cadence.
    No referee is within their right to count off 17 seconds in place of ten seconds to do so proves either incompetence or corruption.The first requirement of ANY referee is impartiality remove that and you have unaccceptable bias.No amount of BS spin or fudging is going to change that, or dress it up as anything but that!
     
  10. janitor

    janitor VIP Member Full Member

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    They are not in violation of the rules of boxing.

    They are merely abusing their position of authority.

    A manager of a supermarket is technically within their rights, to give the deputy manager job, to their cousin who is a drooling idiot.

    They are acting corruptly, but not violating the rules.

    They could make some sort of argument, that their idiot cousin was the best man for the job, and that they had merely done their job by employing him.
     
    Last edited: Jan 7, 2022
  11. Tonto62

    Tonto62 Boxing Addict banned Full Member

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    Nobody is saying anyone counts an exact ten seconds or whatever the required count maybe,but one count of say 8 that takes 18 seconds is obviously wrong and the man administering it should not officiate in any further contests.
    Perhaps that was the case with the ref in the Snoek fight?
     
  12. Tonto62

    Tonto62 Boxing Addict banned Full Member

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    Sorry ,this is just the worst kind of tosh!
     
  13. janitor

    janitor VIP Member Full Member

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    Unfortunately, it is how the world works!
     
  14. Tonto62

    Tonto62 Boxing Addict banned Full Member

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    Its unfortunately how you often work J.You are a courteous and valued poster,you are also obdurate and never admit to the possibility that you might be wrong ,which in this particular case you are.
     
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  15. mattdonnellon

    mattdonnellon Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Refs should work in cadence with a timekeeper but should escort the standing fighter to a neutral corner if required and then pick up the count. The ambiguity comes in when staring at a fighter, cleaning gloves, asking him to put up his hands, take a step forward, etc, a ref could be biased or just very careful of a fighters health-hard to know sometimes.
     
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