Jim Jeffries defended his title twice in 1900 the first defence was against John [ Jack] Finnegan. Finnegan 's record ,[according to Box Rec,any additions will I am sure be gratefully received,] at that time was, 4-2-4. Finnegans 4 wins were over. Jack McCormick 8-14-4 Mike Creedon 5-3-0 Tom Lansing 4-2-0 Dave Corbit 0-0-0 McCormick had lost his last 4 fights ,2 by ko. Creedon had lost 3 of his 8 fights ,all by ko , he was a middle weight. Lansing Had lost 3 of his last 4 fights,1 by ko, he was a middle weight. Corbit Had no previous bouts ,neither did he have any afterwards. Finnegan had drawn with . Jimmy Ryan 18-17-0 Jack Bonner 36-7-12 Herman Beck 0-1-0 Ryan had lost 6 of his last 7 fights ,[the one win was over Tommy Williams, 0-3-0.] After drawing with Finnegan, Ryan would have 5 more fights losing them all by ko ,one to Aurelio Herrera a featherweight. Ryan was a middle weight Bonner was a decent enough fighter he tangled with quite a few names, usually to defeat but then, he too was really a middle weight. After drawing with Finnegan, Bonner lost 9 of his next 13 fights. Beck has 1 win in 6 fights to his credit and that ,over Dave Hall 0-0-1 Beck also had a NC with Hall. Beck was stopped in 2 fights. Beck had 2 draws with nobodies to complete his resume. This then, is Finnegan's record going into his world title challenge to Jeffries in 1900. Below is a report of the epic struggle. "Finnegan landed the first blow as they came to the center of the ring, and Jeffries then put his left on the Pittsburgh man's jaw and he went to the floor. Finnegan came up in a few seconds only to be sent to the floor again with a blow in the same place. He stayed down longer this time and when he again rose he was in visible distress. He had hardly assumed a fighting position before the champion put his left in the pit of his stomach and Finnegan went down completely out. Referee Siler counted the seconds off and when he stepped back it was seen that Finnegan was crying. He staggered to his feet, reeled against the ropes and his seconds rushed into the ring and carried him to his corner. It was several minutes before he recovered sufficiently to leave the ring. Jeffries said he weighed 220, but he looked 30 pounds heavier. Finnegan weighed but 180, and he looked like a boy beside the champion." (Brooklyn Daily Eagle) Jeffries weight was given as 240lbs ,Finnegan's as 180lbs , it is, I believe still the fastest blow out in heavyweight title fights, 55 seconds, no surprise really imo. The question is then ,was Finnegan a suitable challenger for Jeffries Heavyweight crown?
I am not sure whether or not Finnegan was a title defence or an exhibition. It certainly wasnt really a fight where Finnegan was given any chance. In fact, it is not well known, but Jeffries actually fought the day before the finnegan fight against an unknown opponent. If this really was a title match and not an exhibition, it was a pretty brave move to risk the title. although i suppose the flip side to this is that every time the champion steps in the ring the title is really on the line. (not sure what this line of thinking means in relation to the Johnson / gunboat sparring session.) And while we are mentioning Jeffries, i never realised it before, but i wonder whether Jeffries victory over Griffin is the greatest ever performance by a 16 year old ever. Compare this to a 16 year old Tyson or 16 year old Ali. Jeffries was truly an astonishing talent. http://news.google.com/newspapers?i...1446,3468094&dq=jeffries+dempsey+boxing&hl=en
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/art...rticles jeffries&searchLimits=sortby=dateDesc Jeffries doesnt even seem to consider the finnegan fight as a real fight in this article, though hopefully he mentions it later in the series. The corbett I and II comments are very interesting, as are the Loaded gloves comments about Fitz.
Back then, they weren't so much caught up in what a fight was called. It was an actual fight. It was scheduled for 10 rounds. Jeff had a 25-round title fight scheduled with Corbett at the time, and was just using Finnegan as a tune-up/payday, because he knew that Jack was not in his league. He had considered carrying Finnegan for a few rounds, but then Jack made him mad, so he took him out quick. So yes, the bout had more of a non-title fight flavor, but certainly if Finnegan had KO'd Jeff during those 10 rounds, I guarantee he would have been called the new champion. I discuss the details in In the Ring With James J. Jeffries. See pages 344-347. My sources aren't from 1936, when Jeff is writing the series referenced above, but local Detroit newspapers written at the time. Detroit Tribune, Detroit Evening News, Detroit Free Press, April 1900, so you get what was said at the time.
What do you think about the Lawler fight that i mentioned on the other thread that seemed to be scheduled for the night (or day) before the Finnegan fight. From memory it would have been at least a 6 or 7 hour trip (My us geography isnt great) from the Finnegan fight. Do you think that fight likely happened and if so does it make the Finnegan victory quite a bit more impressive.
I have not seen any proof for the Lawlor bout/exhibition/fight. If Jeff did a short or friendly exhibition and then fought Finnegan the next day, it wouldn't surprise me. These guys fought, sparred, and exhibited all the time back then. Hell, Marvin Hart fought 6 tough rounds with Jack Root, a top contender, and then fought Jack O'Brien 6 rounds nine days later. He fought a 6-round rematch with O'Brien and then fought George Gardner ten days later. Tommy Burns fought Harry Peppers and then Archie Steele two days later. He fought Dick Smith and Reddy Phillips on the same day. He fought George Shrosbree and then then very next day fought Mike Schreck. He fought Jim O'Brien and James Walker on the same day. He fought 13 rounds with Bill Squires and then fought 6 with Bill Lang a mere ten days later. Some tough and crazy dudes back then.
Thanks for your input,I understand Finnegan was a tune up ,my point is when the heavyweight champion fights a bona fide scheduled fight it is allways for the title. That being the case, was Finnegan a suitable challenger for the Heavyweight Title?
How Jeffries perceives his fight with Finnegan is not important ,if Finnegan had won he would have been crowned Champion, because there is no weight upper limit on the heavyweight division.Everytime the champion fights a scheduled fight ,he puts his title on the line. Louis found this out when he met Walcott ,in what was to have originally been a 15 rds exhibition . Your reports are gold dust , the low down on Jeffries injury to his arm is riveting . Jeffries opinion that, had his first fight gone the distance, he would have lost his title to Corbett, that Corbett got cocky ,ala Billy Conn, and tried for a ko is, what was allways the consensus verdict of their first fight . On this forum Jeffries boosters, like Mendoza, have tried to intimate that actually Jeffries would have got at least a draw ,and that Corbett's boxing rings around Jeffries were just Corbett's fairy tales, we have the truth from the horses mouth now ,Jeffries himself.:good Jeffries fan boys revisionism won't wash anymore. Fair play to Jeffries for being so honest on the fight. Thanks very much for this info.
This is right on the money. Terms like "exhibition", "sparring" and "amateur" were a lot less concrete back then. I've often seen reports on legit fights back then referred to as "exhibitions" and fighting as "sparring". Sometimes pro fighters are even called "amateurs", referring more to their experience level than status (amateur as opposed to "pro"). It makes it a bit confusing when you're doing research.
I'm still puzzled as to how John Finnegan got this fight. It isn't like he had great connections. He was basically a local (Pittsburgh) phenom who was popular in West PA because of his exciting, brawling style. Red Mason managed him for a time, but his influence was limited outside Pittsburgh as well (which changed later on when he managed fighters like Jack McClelland and Harry Greb). Strange...
But you have to admit, the Lawlor fight looks much more likely than not. A same day (or maybe it was the day before) report in a local paper notes that says it is happening. And no articles can be found suggesting that the World Heavyweight Champion no showed or didnt fight. There is, of course, always the possibility that it was cancelled for whatever reason, but that would seem very, very unlikely. I have seen murder convictions on less evidence.
Nice copycat thread Mcvey! No--Finnegan was not a good choice, but like you said Jeffries Ko'd Finnegan holds the record to this day under shortested lineal heavyweight tittle match. You see When Jeffries was matched vs a mediocre guy, he did not take them the distance, like say Jack Johnson did on numerous occasions. Johnson once had financial incentive to KO a much smaller young Peter Jackson, and could not! Play again:hi:
" Jeffries was matched against a mediocre guy". Your words, Jeffries was the Heavyweight Champion. Finnegan, as his record shows ,did not belong within a hundred miles of a title fight . So,what was he doing challenging Jeffries? You make a thread, stating Flynn did not deserve a shot at Johnson ,yet cannot justify Finnegan getting one against Jeffries. Jim Jeffries once had a financial incentive to stop Hank Griffin, and could not! Jeffries once had a financial incentive to stop Jack Munroe, and could not! It all started innocently enough, an exhibition contest between the reigning Heavyweight Champion of the World and former Heavyweight Champion, Robert Fitzsimmons who were touring together in the Mid West . As part of the show, Jeffries issued the standard challenge to the crowd, offering $500 to any man who could stay four rounds with him. An employee of the local Anaconda mine named Jack Munroe came forward. Although out weighed by some forty pounds Munroe prove quick and evasive, to the degree that he clearly out pointed the Champion in the first two rounds. An angry Jeffries came out for round three and managed to knock Munroe down three times, but come the end of the appointed four rounds Jack Munroe was still standing and had won the challenge and $500 of the Champion's money No one agreed with you on your thread and, no one agrees with you on this one You do shoot yourself in the foot don't you?atsch Never Mind Old Pal Keep Smiling.
Mcvey, I said when Jeffries was matched. Nice of you to edit qutoes to suit your agenda Both Griffin ( who kicked Jonhson's @ss ), and Munroe went down multiple times Jeffries in matches that were 4 rounds They only lasted the distance in 4 rounds because they went down and up and went into survivor mode. Your point here is what? By the way, Johnson in his prime or near prime could not floor a fat and out of shape Munroe in a 6 round match. Yes, I think Finnegan was mediocre, and he lasted less than 60 seconds.
I think you might do me the courtesy of calling me Boucher ,since that is my user name ,I address you as Mendoza ,I could be more graphic but have refrained. The papers of the time ranked Flynn among the top three contenders for Johnsons title ,[see Boilermakers post,] Any of them rank Finnegan anywhere near the top ten? :nono You drew attention to the fact that Young Peter Jackson lasted the distance against Johnson . This was in 1905, when Johnson was scaling around 180lbs This photo, is from Johnson's fight with McVey in 1904, it shows a rangy, lithe fighter ,not yet fully physically matured. This content is protected This content is protected Jackson survived against Johnson by running away the entire fight ,Johnson stopped the action in the 7th round and addressed the crowd", I'd have liked to have shown you a fight tonight ,but I can't catch Jackson". Johnson floored Jackson twice ,and the Baltimore Sun reported that Jackson did his best to get Johnson dsq'd by falling twice without being hit ,hoping Johnson would get frustrated, and hit him ,while he was down. This happened in 1905, three years before Johnson won the title. By the way, Jackson had 134 fights, and was only stopped twice [both early in his career]he met Langford 6 times and he couldn't do it.Neither could Gunboat Smth ,or Joe Jeanette. Three months prior to facing Johnson, Jackson had drawn with Langford over 15rds. Six months after meeting Johnson ,Jackson stopped Langford in 5 rds. Contrast this with Griffin , and Munroe who were facing the Champion in his prime. Johnson did not floor Munroe, did he try? He was content to eke out a 6 rd dec Jeffries in contrast, was trying with all his might to finish Munroe, and could not, and so he forfeited the $500 . Johnson's fight with Munroe was in 1905 , harfdly his prime,according to you anyway. See your previous posts. Old Pal . Now admit, you are sorry you opened this can of worms . Shot yourself in the foot again. remember, Old Pal, God Loves A Tryer. So soldier on ,eh.:good One query , qutoes??????? :huh
