Was Jack Johnson bad for the black fighters?

Excellent post.

Tbh, while I appreciate and respect Manny’s views - I was a but surprised by them.

It almost seems like mass hypnosis, so many falling for the “illusion” that Johnson was the cause and “extender” of far broader pre-existing and ongoing problems.

Jack: The kid that kept everyone in after school.

Someone offered the hostage analogy.

I’m not dismissing it out of hand.

Sure, given the categorically stated threat that someone else’s life would be taken, you’d hand your wallet over.

If they catch the robber/hostage taker - the dude is going to prison. He’d be clearly identified in society to be in the wrong.

However, given the many wrongs perpetrated on blacks, whites of the era weren’t similarly judged or under threat for the consequences of THEIR own actions.

The responsibility for their actions and for the consequences of same was inexplicably placed upon the “source” of their perverse reactions and their ultimate victims.

At least to me, it’s unfortunate that some people seem to still run with an illusory and nonsensical ball that was essentially created by the whites to self rationalise their own racism.

So really, the hostage threat scenario/analogy suggests that, in simply living his life and plying his trade - Johnson was under threat at every turn.

Therefore, moving along with that analogy even further, we would be saying more or less, that the whites Johnson lived among were all criminals or at least should’ve been highly suspected of being so in potential - aka: the white threat.

Bingo. That should speak for itself.

At any rate, many of the whites operated as cowards anyway - not necessarily showing themselves to be properly identified or even making a threat in advance of the violence they were potentially capable of carrying out.

Take that logic down the line, Johnson shouldn’t have even stepped into the ring to beat the life out of Jeffries - because there were deaths/lynchings just for the fact of his victory alone.

I believe one black man was killed for merely having the “audacity” to openly celebrate, in the streets, Johnson’s victory over Jeffries.

I guess that poor fella somehow made a “bad” choice also - in respect of himself and on behalf of his race

And to “quote” Freud (because I need to pull myself up academically and be on par with you lot ).

“Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar”.

Apply and purpose that as you wish - Bill Clinton did.

 

He lived a life in defiance of convention and many conventions of his time he rightly defied.

 

Some terrific posts here ...

I don't believe anyone is saying Johnson was perfect (he clearly wasn't) or romanticizing him but when judging him it's fair to do so in the context of the time and what he was subjected to as his career evolved. He was extremely bright, self educated and brave beyond ... he literally could have been killed at any number of his fights or elsewhere but lived his way regardless .. his career was not incubated and crafted by a highly skilled team out for maximum joint benefit like a Louis. Forty years earlier in a rawer America Johnson fended for himself through poverty, battle royals, bitter prejudice and violence in an age when lynchings were common and the Klan operated defiantly and became heavyweight champion of the world, at the time the greatest sports title of all .. to accomplish all he did took the sum of his parts, the good and bad, and he wasn't always able to pivot and adapt as his life continued to move forward, his skills, desire and earning power dissipated and more sophisticated, venomous attacks kept endlessly coming at him. The intensity of the relentless bombardment had to be brutal. It's fair to say his impact on the sport and America as a whole absolutely made it harder for other black fighters to follow him ... look at the career of Harry Wills and how Willard and Dempsey were able to justify ducking him .. however, it's also fair to say Johnson impacted change ... no coincidence how his popularity boomed again in the sixties as the civil rights movement morphed in the US. It was a very complex life.

 

It took someone like Johnson to get there first. Nobody was going to give him it.

was he bad for black fighters. Yes. But somebody had to get there first.

A better behaved Johnson wouldn’t have got the opportunity. nobody wanted to see a nice guy who’s face didn’t fit get the chance.

He was probably given the chance out of hatred, in the hope the natural order of things would supply a holy comeuppance.

It backfired. And so did the hope that Jeffries would restore things.

Once johnson got there he was as happy to continue to play the bad guy. It brought in the crowds

 

I think Johnson got there first because the right man was champ at the time in Tommy Burns who was willing to not used the color bar against Johnson as past champs have done. Had Dempsey or Sullivan been champ and in there hey days, Johnson would not be stepping in that ring for the title shot. I do think had say Joe Louis box around Burn's time as champ, I do think sooner or later Burns may of giving Louis a shot at the crown as well.

 

'Was Jack Johnson bad for the black fighters?'

I'll put it this way -- if there are any senses in which Jack Johnson was socio/cultural/BoxingRacePolitics "bad for boxing" --
it wasn't Jack's fault that he was 'bad'.
Jack did have a tendency to turn away from Langford/Jeanette/McVey as opponents. I do get the impression that, after he fled the USA, he would have been open to meeting them.

 

Tommy was chased halfway around the world by Johnson and called out constantly and finally agreed to cross the color line for what was then an astronomical sum of 30,000 US ... he was vile and treated Johnson like a dog but did go for the money ... if Johnson didn't have the will and perseverance to make the campaign he never would have gotten the shot ..

 

Didn't Johnson chase Jeffries at the end before he retires?? I think any other white champ around the time would have used the color line at the time.

 

He certainly cried out for a match but Jeffries was so arrogant, so set in his ways and believed by many to be so superior it didn't gain much traction combined with the Hart fight result ... Burns was a different animal , younger, less respected , cocky in his own right and wanted the money ...

 

Johnson is seen by many as a martyr. But the fact is he was out for himself which is fine but was he bad for black fighters? Yes. He drew the color line as soon as he became champion. To attack Dempsey or anyone else for doing it and then giving Johnson a pass is ridiculous. He should be faulted and criticized equally for not giving any other black fighter a shot at the title. He was a skilled fighter and IMO a defensive genius, however the quality of his title defenses is not the best and he fought guys he knew he could beat. Then he ran around after he lost to Willard claiming he threw the fight. Yeah, because thats how you throw a fight you go 25 rounds in the hot sun first, the man had his faults but is celebrated almost as a demigod by many. He wasnt.

 

I highly recommend Pollacks most recent book on Johnson. There is nothing Johnson could've done to sway the overt anti blackness of the time. I remember reading a portion where he said, "I'm not giving him a towel, a white fighter wouldn't do that for me" yet he got attacked afterwards. The hostile racists would rather black ppl shut up n take the abuse instead of correct their anti blackness. Johnson just wasn't the type of guy to lay down which I can't blame him for.



Then the paranoia that racist yt men had towards black men w yt women not making the connection that some of them abused non yt women. Johnson was called a c--- and the hard r in newspapers more than his actual name.


He floated effortlessly into a decision win but wouldn't b called scientific like a yt fighter doing the same. He get a knockout yet his opponent "wasn't that good to begin with" or "a few years that yt man would've beaten Johnson". He couldn't get a fair assessment. Not even just in the South he got anti blackness up North too. Australia even banned him at one point if I'm not mistaken.



I understand his frustrations but agree w an early post here that White America at the time was horrible for black fighters in general as well as blk ppl.

 

Even Pattersons kids were called slurs in the white neighborhood they lived in tbh according to Desert Suns Apr '64. I remember even reading about that in the Autobiography of Malcolm X. Completely agree w ur last statement.

 

Seems to me that racism is what was bad for black fighters.

And for black people.

 

Some valid point for sure but some differences too. Legacy as a fighter completely different because of his record fighting men he later may have avoided. Also age. Johnson didn’t get his shot till he was past his thirtieth birthday and until his thirty second was Jeffries hype, then supposedly the biggest fight. After that, at close to thirty three he did play his share of games.

 

It’s hard not to admire Johnson’s defiance.

he was out for himself. Wasn’t in it to help or serve anyone else. But you can’t knock him for breaking down those barriers.