Was James Toney off-form or just outclassed vs Jones?

thanks, interesting post

 

Those are better sources than normally used here. But still, if he came in at 17 lbs over his weight at the weigh-in that isn't unheard of. It's a lot, but not crazy. Most SMWs probably come in at least 10-15 lbs over their weight at the weigh-in. Several posters here claimed Clottey, a WW, came in 15-20 lbs over.

 

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NIH8hxTFBSY[/ame]

 

You definitely have some solid ground under your feet here. It just that claims like this are so common when someone unexpectedly lose big, but in this case there are undoubtly more foundation than usual.

To be honest, the commentators in the fight are already early on talking about Toney looking weight drained, if I remember correctly.

 

****! He weighed more than Conn did against Louis.

 

So you're saying the Toney win for Jones is completely ****?

 

Roy Jones is the patron saint of discredited wins just like Floyd Maywether is today (and I can't stand Floyd but readily acknowledge his greatness).

Virtually all of Roys wins seem to have an asterisk next to them nowadays

Toney-Weight drained

Hopkins-Green

McCallum-Old

Hill-Washed up

Reggie Johnson-Old and small

Ruiz-Bum

It me shits me to be honest but fighters like Jones and Mayweather who did it easy in their prime tend to be marked far,far harsher than certain sacred cows on this forum whose victories and opposition are never questioned and losses always excused.

 

Well, like said. Toney was weight drained. That´s just a fact. Jones would have beaten him anyway. Everybody in this thread acknowledges this. It´s still one of the best wins of the last 20 years. No need to argue about that.

Nobody says Hopkins was green. People say Hopkins main assets come from experience. He wasn´t experienced then and thus wasn´t a great fighter. A top contender. A good fighter but not the great fighter he would become later on. Thus this is no great win but a good one. A win over a top contender won with a broken hand. His win over Griffin is about as uch worth imo.

Well, you can´t argue that, can you? He was three weightclasses above his best and very much past it. That can´t be argued. Sorry.

Never heard that claim. Imo that´s Jones´ third best win. He was coming of a defeat against DM though.

Well, his best days were over and he was a bit undersized. Still a good win. No special one so.

Come on. Ruiz was handpicked. Everybody knew Jones would stand no chance against the best hws. Stylewise he was made for Jones. But still, Ruiz was one of the biggest overachievers in the history of the sport. A Top10 hw for over a decade. And Jones moved up from lhw to fight him. I don´t believe in that mw champ winning hw championship thing. Jones was only a beltholder at mw and only won a belt at hw. Having a belt only means you are a top contender but you aren´t the champ. But beeing a top contender at both mw and hw is a tremendous achievement in itself. He has to get credit for this win. His second best imo.

I´m harsher on them. I have no problem to admit that. That´s mostly because I´m dissapointed in them. Both could have done more than they actually did. Both chose money over legacy. Both did not go for the biggest challenge, for the glory but instead just thought of money - Jones more than Mayweather so. I fault them for that. I´m harsher on them for that.

 

I´m harsher on them. I have no problem to admit that. That´s mostly because I´m dissapointed in them. Both could have done more than they actually did. Both chose money over legacy. Both did not go for the biggest challenge, for the glory but instead just thought of money - Jones more than Mayweather so. I fault them for that. I´m harsher on them for that.

Well at least you're honest,unfair but honest.

They both have strong resumes,signature performances and dominated their respective opposition (mostly world class fighters) for long periods of time.

Did they fight eveyone?
No both have some glaring ommisions but you know as well as me that if you analyze the career of virtually every great fighter that ever fought they all have that someone missing from their career that could've made them even greater.

Do Jones and Mayweather have more of these ommissions than other greats?
Perhaps but it seems to me that these two fighters get judged more on what they didn't do instead of what they actually did do,which is grossly unfair considering they've both achieved enough to be classed as modern greats under any reasonable criteria.

That's my opinion anyway.

 

No matter when they fought, I am of the belief that RJJ would always beat Toney. I am a Toney fan and say this. Jones' athletic gifts far outweigh that things Toney brought to the table.

 

I don´t think I´m unfair. Harsh, yes. Unfair, no. If I would be unfair I would discredit every win of his. I´m not doing so. I´m critizising some of them but I give both credit. Jones is a Top3/5 fighters of the 90s and Mayweather is a Top2 fighter of the 00s. No question about that.

Yes have a point, I don´t agree with it overall but you have a point. I think it´s easier to forgive someone like Duran who really tested his limits and matched the best than guys like Jones or Mayweather who just didn´t.

 

nobody said that