Was James Toney off-form or just outclassed vs Jones?

I think in the end its academic about being 'weight drained',because most agree toney wouldnt have won anyway.
Also,toney would never mention the fact of his draining whenever he won...
Bottom line,toney should have quit crying and got a rematch.....

 

Agree. Jones style is just too much for james at any weight really.
Doesnt detract from the fact toney is a great fighter though.

 

I would just say that Toney knew the challenge he was up against and was completely pissed he had to work so hard to make weight and not be in a comfortable state of mind to take on his biggest challenge. That being said, again, he was challenging for super middleweight supremacy, not light heavyweight. Toney was the IBF champion, and they were fighting for his title for crying out loud. Jones was also not a full fledged LH and didnt start fighting there for another couple of years.
Toney also became less sharp and lazier as he became more "comfortable" with his weight, and the proof was in future performances, where he didnt perform at a typical James Toney level.

 

Not only he never made 168 again , and weighed in for a fight at 181.5 only that same year (talking about activity) , he weighed in 189 the year after , 200 two years after , and lost his IBO 175 title 3 years later on the scales coming in at 179 against Thadzi , and weighing in 181 against McCallum the fight before it.
Not to mention it was the last time he ever tried to make 175 again.
Of course the weight was a big factor , he was drained for sure against Jones , and I don't know why it is so hard to understand and believe he was severely drained in this fight (in which he still lasted the distance in , and was not even really knocked down , it is obvious it was just because he tried to imitate Jones' clowning , Jones even did not dare to really try to stop him , a thing Reggie Johnson , as defensive as he was , did try to do and after a legitimate knockdown)

 

I don;t think it matters. Getting prepared for a fight is part of the job. IF you come in weight drained, that's your fault, they other guy was better at getting ready for the fight than you were.


Keith

 

He made noises about wanting one but instead lost twice to Montell Griffin and Drake Thadzi then ate himself all the way up to Heavyweight all whilst Jones was dominating at Light Heavy.He did nothing to warrant another fight with Jones.

Toney didn't put himself back on the radar until his great win over Jirov but by then the bird had flown in regards to a fight with Roy.A pity as Toney really wasted the years 1995-2003 when he could've been a serious player at Lt Heavy imo.

 

Since all the really hard facts are in the first category, you mean? The rest are secondary information with only one source that could be labelled objective.

Personally, I'm a bit split on this issue. There's little doubt he had trouble making weight, but the question is just how much trouble and how badly did it affect him?

Gaining 18 lbs pounds after the weigh-in is a lot, but not unheard of. Clottey for example has evidently gained 20+ lbs after the weigh-in. So this information by itself does not give full disclosure.

Then there are the stories about the training camp, but how verified are they? And losing 40-50 lbs during training isn't that extreme either. Ali did so before the rematch with Liston (before it was postponed).

If he does look weight-drained on film that is significant. Haven't watched it in full for a while, but if he's breathing very heavily early, then that, taken with the rest, is a pretty strong signal.

 

Well I just dont know how Toney could be pissed at Jones or feel like Jones was forcing him to fight at a disadvantage when he was the 168 pound champion and they were fighting for his title.
Did he expect Jones who was moving up from 160 to let Toney come in at LH so he was more comfortable? The bottom line is Toney was a spoiled little shithead at that time, and he was threatening to kill everyone and beat everyone up because they were trying to get him to be a disciplined championship fighter. Funny really.

 

I wasnt sayin you said that, but I know Toney was always pissed at Jones like it was his fault they were fighting at 168. I think recently hes changed his tune a bit when discussing Jones. He seem to give him more respect lately.

 

I really gotta support McGrain here. The man is stating facts, backs them up and still some posters here question if Toney was severely weightdrained for the Roy Jones fight. I don't get it.
Yes, I'm a Toney fan, but I'm also a Roy Jones fan, and regardless of all that, Toney being weightdrained and in bad shape for that fight was common knowledge for everybody who was following boxing back then. He's been weightdrained for a lot of other fights too, but it's been particularly bad for the Jones fight.

The arguments that he stayed active and knew he was gonna have one of the most important fights of his career so far are irrelevant - because Toney just was 'a lazy pig' who always ballooned up between fights, no matter how frequently he fought (and a lot of these fights he already fought at above 168lbs), and who still took the Roy Jones fight too lightly. He underestimated Roy Jones, and thought he could just knock him out. Well, he was wrong, and it backfired on him.
I remember a TV interview a couple of weeks before the fight, where Toney claimed that he was prepared. The interviewer then asked him about the weight issue and why he broke his training camp, at which Toney became irritated and said that it doesn't matter because he was just gonna knock Roy out... 'get yo track shoes on!'
Well we all know the KO didn't happen, but it also indicates that Toney completely misjudged the situation.

And nobody is trying to give Toney an excuse here, he has nobody but himself to blame for this. McGrain and myself and most others here stated that Toney would most probably have lost to Jones even if he had been in good shape - because Roy Jones was just that good at that time and a stylistic nightmare for Toney.
But the fact remains that Toney was very weightdrained in the Roy Jones fight, period. And that's what this thread is about.

 

Well I believe he was weight drained for most of his fights at 168, thats the point. His weight fluctuated in the past, but my point is I never understood why Toney felt it was Jones fault? He always seemed to blame Jones for making him defend his 168 title at 168 pounds!