Was Johnson regarded as a better infighter or outfighter in his own time?

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by McGrain, Jan 29, 2011.


  1. janitor

    janitor VIP Member Full Member

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    I have never tried to score the fight, but was it that bad?
     
  2. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    Yeah, if people were claiming victory for Machen it can only be explained by his unpopularity and the low blows he landed in the fight. By card:


    Round 1: 10-9 Machen
    True to his pre-fight bluster, Machen didn't seem scared at all and landed good punches.

    Round 2: 10-9 Machen
    Machen was able to slip behind Liston at one point and land a good combo on the future champ as he turned out of the ropes. He laid the blueprint in these first two rounds.

    Round 3: 10-9 Liston
    Liston turns the tide with hard punches to the body and head, but he has actually put the really heavy, swinging artillary to bed for the most part at this point, which was the right thing to do I think, and a good adjustment. Machen gets on his bike a bit for the first time.

    Round 4: 10-9 Liston
    "The winner of this one is thoroughly deserving of a title shot." Liston establishes his jab and Machen looks worried for the first time, continually moving rather than trying to tempt Sonny in for the counter. Ships a good one-two in this round. Liston declining to clinch.

    Round 5: 10-9 Liston
    Liston is trying to get across the heavy artillary again. He had some success with the lead right to the body but less with the left upstairs. Liston is wary of getting countered, but Machen scores a beautiful counter left and bulls Liston back.

    Round 6: 9-9 Liston is docked a point for a low blow.
    This is a really close round with Machen scoring with lead left hooks and Machen scoring with the right, Liston probably wins it in the last minute with the left, but a tied round is also fair. Liston hits Machen very low at the end of the round and he is furious, the ref takes a way a point.

    Round 7: 10-10
    They fight evenly again. Things have been bad-tempered at close quarters through the last two rounds. Both land good lefts.

    Round 8: 10-9 Liston
    Machen has some trouble in this round and begins to fight out of a crouch with which Liston has some trouble, but the big man is able to take advantage when Machen slips on what I think was water and lands his first uppercut of the fight! Machen really took that shot away from him, with good hyperactive movement, careful placement in clinches and good balance (never tilting in or to the side when punching). He was also careful not to remain stationary when crouching. Great skills. Liston shows his own though, landing the best combo of the fight ending in a clubbing right hand, thrown curved and with beautiful accuracy. He also scores with body blows on the belt line - the referee lets them go, but I thought they were debatable.

    Round 9: 10-9 Liston
    Liston is bringing pressure, bulling and throwing more punches. Machen is mobile throwing out jabs whilst on the move, but Liston does well to slip.

    Round 10: 10-9 Liston
    Liston returns to the jab as Machen stays on his bike. Machen lands his best punch of the fight, a left hook, but he is being bullied for the first time, and the size discrepancy is suddenly obvious.

    Round 11: 9-8 Machen - the referee takes away TWO points for a low blow
    Liston is frustrated and looking for the KO, lashing out at anything, really pouring it on. Machen shows great balance and awareness to keep himself out of the way of the uppercut. Machen hits on the break and Liston tries to get at Machen through the referee who looks a bit grumpy. Machen ships a really low uppercut and the referee gives him a minute to recover. Machen seems furious and shows great heart. They continue fighting after the bell.

    Round 12: 10-10
    Machen leading with hooks, Liston does good work to the body.

    TOTALS: 115-112, Liston



    Two of the three officals scored it wider.
     
  3. janitor

    janitor VIP Member Full Member

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    I have started two Harry Wills threads for your personal entertainment!
     
  4. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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  5. GPater11093

    GPater11093 Barry Full Member

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    Johnson was just such a good physical specimen especially for his age, that what makes him hard to beat, he was pretty much complete in that regards and he could utilise every advantage when he could.

    Out speed a strong man, out muscle a speedster or even vice versa.

    I think the key to beating him would lay in his opponents strengths, is his opponent is faster he could stay on the outside and have a good chance but inside he would be beaten up. If his opponent was stronger he could hang inside but not necessarily do much outside.
     
  6. GPater11093

    GPater11093 Barry Full Member

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    Johnson was just such a good physical specimen especially for his age, that what makes him hard to beat, he was pretty much complete in that regards and he could utilise every advantage when he could.

    Out speed a strong man, out muscle a speedster or even vice versa.

    I think the key to beating him would lay in his opponents strengths, is his opponent is faster he could stay on the outside and have a good chance but inside he would be beaten up. If his opponent was stronger he could hang inside but not necessarily do much outside.
     
  7. Boucher

    Boucher Well-Known Member Full Member

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    Johnson called himself a "composite fighter, "a mixture of the old school and the new.
    Stylistic advantage ? Ali, because of his speed, and, because he punched "long."
    I discount Hart's effort, because swarmers like Langford,Flynn,McVey, got murdered coming in
     
  8. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    I didn't think McVey was a swarmer. You reckon he was?
     
  9. guilalah

    guilalah Well-Known Member Full Member

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    In Pollack's book on Marvin Hart there is some discussion of Hart's neutralizing Johnson's uppercut; I've look that section over again, my recollection was that Hart used a crossed arm defense (I'll come back and correct this assertion if I'm wrong).
     
  10. janitor

    janitor VIP Member Full Member

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    I do not really think of McVea as a swarmer.

    In many respects he was a defensive fighter, although he used upper body movment in prety much the same way as a pressure fighter.

    Boxer puncher would be nearer the mark.
     
  11. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    Cool.
     
  12. Boucher

    Boucher Well-Known Member Full Member

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    Yes, he came forward hooking ,what would you call him?
    Come into Johnson ,you get beat,imo.
    Ali would not ,he would peck away from distance ,Johnson did not have a long reach,[it was shorter than Burns'].
     
  13. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    To me, a swarmer brings fast and consistent aggressive pressure. McVey looks like a stalker to me, but like Janitor, i'd prefer box-puncher to swarmer. But maybe we just use swarmer as a descriptive word in different ways.
     
  14. Boucher

    Boucher Well-Known Member Full Member

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    I don't think McVey was much of a boxer ,according to what I have read, he was nowhere as near polished in this area as Langford for example.
     
  15. janitor

    janitor VIP Member Full Member

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    McVea's fights with Langford all followed prety much the same pattern, with McVea trying to outbox Langford at range and Langford trying to force matters on the inside.