Was Liston-Clay a fix? I don't think so

MagnaNasakki,

I think Sonny called the shots 'all by himself'' on the second fight.
Going by the tape, something doesn't look 'Kosher"

 

I do agree with you sir. He just quit. Cut the goose. Probably didn't want to be there in the first place, but he still got up and went back to fighting. Thats all I need to see to know that all the fixing was in Listons head. He got clipped, and was mentally out of the fight from that moment on.

Welcome btw, you seem to have a ton of knowledge.

 

Thank You Sir,

And you are 100% correct. Liston was out of shape mentally.
He absolutely did not want to be there (Lewiston, Maine).

Whether the punch was hard enough to break an egg (or not), he did go down.
He did get up, and looked as if he was sleep-walking.

In his next fight, with the 'Great' Gerhard Zecht, he looked like a 'clumsy'
bar brawler. All his punches were slow and club-like, no snap what so-ever.
He was not the Sonny Liston of old.

 

Your correct about the evidence that he deliberately blinded and throwing the fight ARE evenly balanced, however, whilst we have no actual proof i believe we can take it,through watching the fight, that Clay was in some distress without a doubt as a result of something in his eyes. As for throwing the fight, IMO is total nonsense as the 5th round shows Liston clearly going for it (without much success it has to be said). Some people (im not insinuating yourself here) just flat out refuse to give Clay credit for a good win. Liston tried, realised he wasnt getting anywhere and lost heart. Im not suggesting thats why he quit as he may well have been injured, but he knew after a few rounds that he was in for a hard night.
Then you have people saying he was an old man too. He wasnt an old man when he was blasting out Patterson in his previous fights. I didnt hear too many claim that then. Too many excuses and conspiracy theories when the truth is the simplest explanation.

 

I agree with you 100% here and have debated this on other threads

 

No... Fight # 1 down in Florida was legit... Ali / Clay was ready to take the title from a lackluster and aging Liston in 1964 and Ali / Clay did just that, too... A ready and willing Ali / Clay at age 22 yrs and 210 pounds was too slick and spry for the 30+ something Liston who was a soft 218 pounds...

NOW! Fight # 2 up in Maine come 1965, well, that sucked weenie and stunk like a rancid fart from here to eternity.... I think Liston went into the tank in a secret manner.... The match was as crooked as the Mississippi river.... I believe team Ali was on the level, but not Sonny Liston....

MR.BILL:hatbbb

 

I read that the second fight wasnt "fixed" although I read Liston was terrified about going into that ring. Liston had information that Ali was going to be assasinated in the ring. And Liston wanted to get the hell out of that ring as soon as possible.There was a very bad atmosphere leading up to that fight. between the Black Muslims, Mafia & FBI.

 

Liston did a bad job almost winning a fight he was trying to fix. Good thing he had a shoulder injury to bow-out from. Or that could just be a sign of how much Liston was strenuously trying. People who fix fights don't play hard enough to get themselves injured. Has anyone ever played sports hardly trying and ever got seriously injured (Unless someone did do something idiotic to you). This a the HW champion of the world we're talking about and not some average joe.

 

Part # 2 may NOT be a solid fixed fight, but Liston did go into the tank for unknown reasons he took to his grave in 1971....

The lobbing right that a back-peddling Ali tagged and dropped Liston with in round 1 was not hard enough to KO a second rate sparring partner..... That act of Liston hitting the deck and looking baffled and outta synch with his body and legs as he rolled about on the floor was a terrible acting job.... A tuff dude like Liston was able to eat that kind of "Anchor" punch for breakfast and then seek seconds when he was on the level and serious.... Liston's effort stunk in Maine.....

MR.BILL

 

Listons job in Lewiston, Maine was an act.
And a bad acting job at that.

One thing to remember, Vegas didn't want that fight.
Thats all we need to know.

Just how does Lewiston, Maine get a heavyweight title fight?
When no one else wants it!

 

Less than 2500 people for a Heavyweight Title fight.

The lowest attendance ever for a heavyweight title fight.

And they had to give several hundred away to the locals.

Note;
Toronto, Canada was offered this fight with George Chuvalo on the undercard.
THEY SAID NO!

 

First fight, Miami 1964 : Fixed. Absolutely.

But Clay was better than Liston anyway.

 

Food for Thought,

Going into that #1st fight in Miami, on Feb 25,1964.
Sonny had fought a total of 6 rounds in the ring, in 3 1/2 years.
(4) fights; (3) 1st round KO's and (1) 3rd round KO.

Also, his age of 31 (at the time of that fight) was always disputed.
Zora Folley said Sonny was 4 years older than he claimed, putting him at 35.

Combine the lack of ring time and advancing age, you can see why he kind of
flattened out during that fight.

 

Interesting, could you explain why you are confident it was fixed Unforgiven?