It doesn't indicate a fix, but it counters the argument that the mob would lose out if Liston lost the championship. Apart from likely betting profits associated with a pre-arranged upset, the mob still retained influence and control of big-time boxing. As it happened, in 1965, the Liston-Ali rematch turned out to be a very suspect fight, and was promoted by the same firm, Intercontinental (which was, I think, no longer headed by president Charles Liston). Not only that, but Ali's next fight, against Floyd Patterson in Las Vegas was promoted by Intercontinental ! Now, call me skeptical, but I dont believe a promotional firm originally supposedly headed by "Sonny Liston" was actually completely clean from mob influence, or that by 1965 they were promoting mafia-free fights in Vegas. Meanwhile, the WBA had cooked up an excuse to strip Ali of their recognition and split the title, whereupon they made Ernie Terrell the champion. Terrell was Chicago-based and reputedly he and/or his manager were completely under the influence of the Chicago mob. Mobsters still had their fingers in the pie. The point being, the mafia did not lose control of heavyweight championship boxing or a cut of its big-time profits with Liston losing to Clay. If anything the mob just became invisible, and integrated their operations into the coporate world of various legit firms. They modernized. To them boxing was only ever a sideline anyway, a plaything. Wasn't a bread-and-butter industry, like vice and gambling, and drugs, etc. I dont believe they ever went away totally though. Certainly not in the 1960s. And Don King came out of Cleveland's illegal gambling racket and apparently borrowed heavily from the Cleveland mob to get his start in boxing. mafia have a way of covering all bases, getting their slice and influence.
After a performance like Clay's against Cooper, when Clay seemingly did not care to give anywhere near his best, it's better to take the big money offer than let the fighter mess up against an inferior fighter and never have the opportunity at all. Clay only wanted Liston from the beginning, and he rose up to the occasion. Johansson retired instead of fighting Liston. Cooper and his manager admitted to ducking Liston. Clay was the only man around who was actually calling him out. He was a constant nuisance to Liston with his antics, which is well-documented.
Funny enough i read the other week that King had to borrow mob money for a fight (cant recall which it was but i think it may have been Ali-Wepner) and it took him up to '80 or '81 to finally clear his debt. Wouldnt have liked to seen the interest accrued. Think he got a slap at one stage over not paying in time
Wasnt the clay/jones fight an eliminater? Coopers manager jim wicks has stated on many an occasion he wanted no part of Liston
jm36, The Clay-Jones fight was held on 3/13/63. The Clay-Cooper fight was held on 6/18/63. I don't think there was an 'eliminator fight'. You are correct on Cooper's managers statement, but I think that was said in 1960, before Sonny had the title. Even though Ol' Enry lost (cuts), he was 'super' popular after the Clay fight. A fight with Liston would have been a tremendous gate.
I found this interesting article from 1957 that describes Angelo Dundee in no uncertain terms as being the IBC's Florida representative (the IBC being the notorious boxing monopoly controlled behind the scenes by Frank Carbo), and features allegations that he was muscling in on an independent fighter. http://news.google.com/newspapers?i...AAIBAJ&pg=4136,4156018&dq=angelo+dundee&hl=en Here's an article from March 1964, where a senator raises the question of whether the incarcerated Frank Carbo had associates linked to both Clay and Liston's camps. Again Dundee is mentioned as having been present six years earlier in a boxing-related Carbo-led mob meeting. Also present at that meeting was Sam Margolis, who turned out to be officially on half of Liston's share in the Intercontintal Promotions slice of Liston-Clay revenue. http://news.google.co.uk/newspapers...&pg=6936,6282204&dq=keating+frank+carbo&hl=en People talk about Liston's mob links without realising that the mob had almost all the fighters covered. And Angelo Dundee is a great guy and was no gangster but he was certainly connected and on the right side of the mob, and was a small part of the "octopus" that monopolised boxing. The Dundees were the boxing men in Florida by the grace of Carbo and the IBC, and they represented that interest. And there were real connections between the Dundees and men who were still officially taking a slice of Sonny Liston.
As of Feb '63, a month before the fight,Ring magazine had Clay at number 2 and Jones at number 3, with patterson at no1 but i think we can take it that floyd was outta the picture after his 2 heavy losses, no way was he getting a 3rd fight. So although it may not have been an official eliminater, i believe it was a given that the winner was getting a crack at sonny. Cooper was 10 by the way
I thought it was the 2nd fight people thought was fixed, not the first? First fight obviously wasn't a fix. Rather, it was one of the best ever victories in the division. Ali was a 9-1 underdog, got cheated with foul play, blind in the ring vs Liston (the Tyson of his era) and still won! Awesome victory.
You forgot to mention Liston quit suddenly and surprising, and that the fight was even on the scoring. I think it was fixed.
The scoring was indeed even, but i've always felt that Liston was being clowned badly. The final round is both evidence for and against the fix being in, and that just about sums it up for me. All the key questions, in my opinion, are unanswerable.
Clowned badly ? I dont think so. Clay hadn't really got going either though. I think it was quite an uneventful 6 rounds. And as poor as Liston was in the 6th, Clay slowed down too. But then I dont even think Liston was trying. It's just one of those fights that barely gets started then stops. It had a stink about it and it didn't do much for boxing at the time. Funny how people glorify it now as something great. I guess that was the point of Muhammad Ali, he brings some sort of magic to any event, however farcical.
Liston got hit plenty, and hard, in six then, if you don't like clowned. Clay himself remarked upon his "suddenly" being able to land at will. This can work both ways, but how to learn? "Farcical"? Clay looked really good in there to me.
I agree he wouldn't quit if the mob were backing him. I'm not so sure it was a fix though, Liston seemed to be trying pretty hard to win for the first 6 rounds, and the whole blinding incident is hardly how to lose a fight.