Was Liston shot when he lost to Martin?

Yes I knew that.

 

Liston went down like he was shot.

 

He was 40+ going on 60. It wasn't a case like Foreman where he lived a clean life and preserved himself. It was the polar opposite.
"Shot" is a specific condition. Usually legs are gone, reflexes dulled, chin no longer reliable. If he wasn't shot he was close. As you'll hear other boxer say sometimes when you walk up the steps you just don't have it anymore

 

Yeah well you rigged it.

 

Watching the fight and Liston (who although never quick) looked like he was fighting in slow motion. His jab, though still powerful, was about all he had left after flooring Martin with the left hook. Sonny's right hand was a non factor where once it was a weapon. Liston's stamina was clearly gone as well. He was blowing up and slowing still further at the time of the stoppage.

Liston I'd say was still formidable to a certain level of fighter at this point but no longer elite. I'd heavily back Frazier, Quarry and Ellis to whip him with ease at this point as well. He wasn't totally shot but compared to what he was in the early 60's he was a spent force.

 

Yes, I go along with this. The guy earned the position he had in the ratings at that point so he was justifiably good enough to be where he was rated, but no better than that..because he had been better. As you say, still formidable up to a level.

Here Sonny is a few months earlier.

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There is always that chance I guess...

But I’m happy to go out on a limb on this one that Sonny was a bit passed it Thankyou.

The option asks “despite being over 40” well he died at 40. So sure, Sonny was dead at the time. He was so “past it” Liston had passed on!

 

Henry Clark had worked his way into the lower echelon of the Top 10 following a win over Martin in April 1968. Liston's win over Clark was what allowed him to re-enter the ratings after an absence of about three years.

 

You said it would have taken an exceptional fighter to beat him. Exceptional=Outstanding. Martin was an average heavyweight. He was nothing special. I dont think he was exceptional even for a contender and he certainly wasnt exceptional in the bigger picture of the HW pantheon. I would say at this point in his career Liston was living on borrowed time as a contender and could lose to anyone in or near the top ten at a given moment. Thats what happens when these guys get old and thats why he was very carefully picking his matches. He was just collecting paychecks without risking a big loss that would drop him off peoples radars. He turned down fights with both Quarry and Ellis (for the title) despite claiming he was being ducked by everyone and that he wanted a title shot. People have tried to paint Martin as special based on two things: A story that went around that Joe Frazier was ducking him, which was untrue (Martin had been managed by Yank Durham and ended leaving Durham for another manager and taking two of Durham's fighters with him. Yank swore he would never be a part of Martin making another dollar and he was true to his word), and his knockout over Liston. Some think that in order to make Liston look like this god he couldnt possibly lose to an average fighter so they have to beef up Martin's reputation. When Martin fought Liston hed lost four of his last ten fights including a decision loss to fellow Philadelphia HW 10-1-1 Roger Russell. Nobody and I mean nobody who was better than average could have lost to Russell. And Russell beat him by standing in with him trading. Martin is the only "name" fighter Russell ever beat. He has a draw with a shot Zora Folley but that wasnt even because he did so well, it was because he and Folley stood there staring at each other the entire fight and hardly threw any punches. Leotis Martin was a calculated pick by Liston. He was one of the least threatening, most uneven performing contenders. When he defeated Russell in their rematch held less than a month before Martin fought Liston Martin was dropped and fought such a poor fight, despite clearly winning, that his hometown papers thought his fight with Liston would be a farce and talked about how the audience walked out of his bout. The fact that Liston lost by KO to a guy like that tells just how far he had fallen.

 

He looks like an old fighter here.

 

So are you saying Clark was ranked in May 68?

 

https://www.boxingforum24.com/threads/henry-clark-the-west-coast-cassius-clay.426572/page-5

As per this thread about him, it would certainly appear so. He was coming off wins over former contender Machen and Martin, who was still ranked in the Top 10 going his fight with Liston. He wasn't a top ranking contender or anything, but he certainly had a case for a spot in the Top 10 based his form going into that contest.

 

Old fighter or not either-side of this performance Scrap iron went the distance with a prime Joe Frazier and Prime Jerry Quarry ...yet Sonny stops him.

So far as results go, This is an excellent performance. Past prime fighters can often match a result in the same number of rounds without looking quite as good as in their prime.