Was Liston shot when he lost to Martin?

Plenty of people stopped Johnson. It happened. And as far as Sonny's condition, power is most often the last thing to go. On film he looks tired and lacking snap, careful not to expose his deficiencies.

 

Quarry stopped Johnson in two rounds when they met in 1966. In 1970 he dominated Johnson. In 1975 he dominated him again despite showing up fat, undertrained, out of shape and having been partying and doing cocaine. Johnson was little more than a human punching bag and he was stopped on his feet against Liston. Its not Liston sparked him out. The point is getting overly excited about beating a guy who had lost half of his fights seems like damning him with feint praise. Johnson was a safe opponent, nothing more.

 

Yeah, I think Johnson was a safe opponent. I have long believed Sonny lost interest in championship ambitions at that point and was simply “punching the clock” at that time with safe paydays.. but some results after the Ali fights were still reasonable. He was certainly not getting hurt winning any of those fights was he?

Some of these Liston fans can’t have it both ways. The same guys that say Sonny was frozen out of the title (and otherwise would beat Frazier or Ellis) also decide Liston was shot by the time he fought Martin.

 

Well, its a pretty weak argument given the timeline. After Ali Sonny was persona non grata in the USA for three full years. He didnt have a fight in the USA until early 1968 and even then, prior to the Clark fight, it was an uphill battle getting licensed in California just to fight Clark. That fight, held in the summer of 1968, got him a rating and television exposure and several fight offers which he turned down. In fact when he fought Clark, who was rated #5 by the WBA, Liston himself said he wanted to take his time and fight the #4 contender next. Even then Sonny was slow walking it. Thats why he fought Martin, who was rated #4 despite having lost to Clark. Its also why he turned down fights with Quarry (who was #1) and Ellis (who was champion). So the Clark fight was mid 1968 and the Martin fight was late 1969. Thats only a year and a half for all of these people to be ducking him. Meanwhile during that time period Ellis, who Liston declined to fight, was inactive for a variety of reasons and Frazier defended against Quarry (who Liston declined to fight) who the WBA had as #1 and Bonavena who they had as #3 when Liston beat Clark. Go check out the tomato cans Liston was fighting and tell me these guys were running from him. Liston was actively pursuing fights that would keep modest paydays coming in steadily without upsetting the apple cart while whispering that he wanted another title shot but not too loudly.

 

I don't know if Liston was "shot" ... I'd say no (considering he brutalized Wepner after that).

But, after 16 years as a pro, a couple stays in prison and living a very unhealthy lifestyle (mixed with drug use), Sonny was definitely nowhere near his prime as an athlete.

 

Oh I’m full of **** because Frazier only had 16 fights? Joe won the title in his 19th fight! Frazier had already beaten Doug Jones, Eddie Machen and Oscar Bonavena, making himself a rated fighter.

Sonny knew his limitations, desires and ambitions at that time. He was past his best but also past being that interested in serious competition anymore. He was still ok up to a level.

 

BS he was probably closer to 50 than 40

 

Not according to the census. There really isn’t any legs to that story that Sonny was close to fifty which is why all the updated data on his birth date his birth no earlier than 1930.

 

You know Joe became champ beating Mathis right?

 

Well we all have our opinions and theories when it comes to Liston. I'm sticking with mine though

 

Maybe this is because Sonny really thought he was 22 in 1950? It is possible he really didn’t know. But we know now.

However, if a census shows a child did not exist within a family in 1930, then ten years later an extra ten year old child called Charles is listed in that family, the writing is on the wall.

The census only became available in the last ten years or so.