Was Liston Totally Finished, After Ali 2.?

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by Fergy, Jun 21, 2022.

  1. Fergy

    Fergy Walking Dead Full Member

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    Like Holyfield getting crushed by Toney, yet coming only losing a majority decision to Valuev.
    So my question is, if back then, there had been a few other titles flying around, could sonny Liston have still be in with a shot?
     
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  2. billyb71

    billyb71 Member banned Full Member

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    Liston fought another 14 fights, losing 1, after Ali2. . If they had let him in the tournament to replace a war defrocked Ali, he would have probably won that.
     
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  3. bboyrei

    bboyrei Member Full Member

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    He was still killing it post Ali which makes the chances of their fight being a fix even higher. Wepner said Liston was the most dangerous fighter he fought and Liston only lost to Leotis Martin while he was ahead in the cards due to gassing out. Already pushing his 50s by then if we were to believe.
     
  4. Fergy

    Fergy Walking Dead Full Member

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    Some of those guys around that Ali was beating as champ, I can see Liston in with a shot.
    Cooper, London, Patterson of course, Chuvalo, Williams obviously.
    Even tho hrd lost the belt and looked bad in the second fight, do I think Liston was done?
    I say no, a decent trainer, motivated, who knows how far he could gone.
     
  5. White Bomber

    White Bomber Boxing Addict Full Member

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    As old as he was, Liston beats them all.
     
  6. djanders

    djanders Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Actually, there were quite a few "World" Titles around in Sonny's time, after the 2nd Ali loss. There were the WBA (NBA), WBC, NYSAC, NABF (which Liston tried to get, in the Leotis Martin fight), and RING (considered "Lineal" or "Universal" as well), to name the most prominent ones. I do agree with you, that Sonny was rarely given the shots at belts that he deserved, due to the politics in play in boxing at the time.
     
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  7. klompton2

    klompton2 Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Its a complete myth that Liston didnt get opportunities after Ali. He turned down three separate offers to fight Quarry, one in Las Vegas, one in Texas, and one in California. He turned Chuvalo. He turned down Cleroux. He was offered $50,000 to face Jimmy Ellis for the WBA title. Thats the biggest paycheck he would have gotten post Ali and a shot at the title and he turned it down. Liston was just treading water after Ali. He was simply trying to make as much money as possible while facing the least threatening opposition possible in order to continue the idea that he was trying to make some run for the title. He wasnt going to face anyone threatening after Ali crushed his confidence and exposed him. Thats why the only two rated fighters he fought post Ali were Henry Clark who couldnt punch a hole in a wet paper bag and Leotis Martin who at that time was the weakest contender in the top ten that Liston could face and still stay rated and look what happened. Martin was the highest rated contender Liston had faced since Ali and he got knocked out cold laying face down on the canvas. People always make so much of New York banning him but Liston never fought in New York as a professional. It never stopped him from becoming a contender, getting a title shot, and winning a championship. He was very briefly banned in California after Ali but he fought that at the state capital and ended up winning and had two fights there after Ali. It was Liston's choice to fight in backwaters like Phoenix and Jaurez when he could have been fighting a televised fight in Las Vegas against Quarry at a time when Quarry was rated #2 or #3 in the world and had just gone 15 with Ellis. Nobody kept Liston from those fights but Liston and Leotis Martin told us why.
     
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  8. Journeyman92

    Journeyman92 Resident Gadfly Full Member

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    H..e he... he had the sniffles for the Martin bout!
     
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  9. Jason Thomas

    Jason Thomas Well-Known Member Full Member

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    Very interesting take. And it casts a different light on the 2nd Ali fight. Why was Liston reluctant to fight dangerous opponents if he was still an awesome fighter who had tanked the Ali fight when he could have won it? The explanation is he was indeed taken out with one punch and was now wary of it happening again.
     
    Last edited: Jun 21, 2022
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  10. klompton2

    klompton2 Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Liston just had that classic bully mentality. Ali broke him and his confidence. After that he was risk averse. Look how panicked he got when Martin bloodied his nose. He looked like every bully Ive ever seen who got his nose bloodied by someone who stood up to them. He went from this scowling, confident tank to looking like he was going to cry and then he got knocked spark out. Ive never thought the first or second Ali fight was fixed. The first one he got his ass kicked. It was a one sided boxing lesson. The second fight I think he just knew he wasnt going to beat Ali, he had already quit to him once, and after he got his paycheck he wasnt going to take anymore lumps than he had to. If the fight started and he miraculously somehow had some initial success it might have gone longer but when Ali picked up where he left off in the first fight I think Liston had flashbacks and said "screw this". People act like he took a dive but neglect to acknowledge that he actually got up and was fighting when the match was stopped (incorrectly) by Joe Walcott. Was he looking for a soft spot to land? Maybe, but I dont think it had anything to do with gamblers or the black muslims kidnapping his family or anything else other than simplest explanation which was that Liston knew he wasnt going to win that fight so why take his lumps when he could cash out early. I cant think of another fighter who has so much outright bull**** and fantasy attached to his name from the date of his birth (someone on here was actually claiming he was pushing 50 when he fought Martin), to the circumstances of his career and some of his losses (and some of his victories) to the way he died. You could write a book on the inanity that gets tossed around in regard to Liston.
     
  11. ThatOne

    ThatOne Well-Known Member Full Member

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  12. Holmes77

    Holmes77 Member banned Full Member

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    Liston would have killed Quarry and he was also controlled by the mob so he just couldn’t fight anyone he wanted etc…..
     
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  13. klompton2

    klompton2 Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Yeah right. The mob was still controlling Liston in 1968 when he was fighting complete nobodys for peanuts in the sticks after the two fights with Ali had created tons of controversy and rumors of underworld influence. Where was the upside for the mob to steer Sonny Liston away from a big money TV fight with Quarry (and Chuvalo, and Ellis, etc etc) and have him fight the Sonny Moore's and Willis Earls of the world? People are so gullible. "The mob was the reason why Liston refused to fight Quarry and took on smaller fights for less money." LOL. I guess it was the mobs master plan to keep Liston outside of the top five and forever arms length away from big money fights and a title. Because the mob hates money. Or didnt want to see Liston get beat. Explain to me exactly what the mobs motivation would have been to protect Liston and keep him (and by extension themselves) away from big money??

    And while you are fantasizing about Liston killing a hard punching counterpuncher with a solid jaw please tell me what he did to Martin who nobody rates as highly as Quarry.
     
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  14. Holmes77

    Holmes77 Member banned Full Member

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    Do u know who Nino Gaggi is? Probably not enough said
     
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  15. mr. magoo

    mr. magoo Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    I believe he was finished as a champion. But as many have said already, he still had a lot of fight left in him and was probably a legit top 10 fighter until his loss to Martin in 1969