Was Louis more shot against Marciano than Tyson was against Lewis?

slowing down is not shot. both Tyson and Louis were still effective at a good level, even if they were not where they had been at their absolute prime they probably both beat anyone but a champion level fighter. you cant say that about Ali or roy jones now. thats shot.

 

Louis never fought again.
Tyson would lose by stoppage to Williams and McBride.

Shot.

 

Tyson. Mike was more past it than Jack dempsey was when he fought Cowboy Luttrel.

 

Louis was stil very active and beating rated fighters.

Tyson was not.

 

Louis had something left when he fought Marciano. Tyson had about a round and a half left when he fought Lewis.

Tyson was more shot by a good margin. Louis at least had his jab, and functional stamina, along with a much better heart.

 

Tyson. Louis was coming off a decision win over Bivins where he was weight drained at 203, so was back to full strength at 213.

Often overlooked is the fact Marciano's left hook really came of age in this one, surprising Joe enough that he commented to Rocky about it. Louis still looked reasonable in the rounds he won, and I wonder how he might have done against the Marciano of the Layne bout, with Rocky's hook not yet perfected.

Louis still had enough to put Savold down and out with his hook. In Lee's next and final bout, Marciano also stopped him in six and sent him to the hospital, but did not floor him.

During the broadcast of Brion II, it was noted that Joe was no longer throwing combinations as he once had, and he admitted himself that he now had to think to throw the right. The combinations with which he knocked out JJW in their rematch were now gone, left behind in the 1940's. Still, Brion II was a much improved performance over Brion I.

Marciano and Louis both progressed over the course of 1951 for their showdown. I don't see how a case could be made that Tyson was improving in any way for Lennox.

 

Tyson. By far.

Tyson was long gone by then.

It was SIXTEEN YEARS before when he won his first strap! And Lewis was STILL tentative.

 

Correct. Louis improved from Brion I to Brion II. Yes Louis was more limited than in his peak years but his comeback is entirely underrated. Brion was an excellent opponent. He beat worse guys for the title during the bum of the month campaign. Bivins, Beshore and Savold were decent level too. These fights took place within a short timescale. On that form Louis was a big risk on paper for Marciano. Louis was a betting favourite after all.

 

Louis had more in front of him, Louis was fighting a younger opponent, a much more aggressive opponent, and still had MUCH more to his game. He had to deal with much more, he was in there with someone who would go on to become one of the all time greats - not someone who was really at the tail end of his own career and who was fighting scared.
Look back at prime Louis' fight with say, someone like Arturo Godoy the first time - he never looked his best against that type of style of opponent anyway but couple that with the fact that it was Rocky Marciano in front of him!? He wasn't doing bad?

Tyson had been rocked 30 seconds in and was basically charging in and loading up with one punch at a time by 1 minute in? No jab no head movement at all no real clue what he was doing just really trying to be faster and more explosive which was never going to happen after the first round. You could see the anxiety in him by the end of the first, he was really lost without a trainer, he wasn't so much a programmed fighter but he was definitely a well drilled fighter at his best - without that tactical approach drilled into him he was now at a loss of how to get inside. The only times he did show any head movement it was more in desperation when he realised he was starting to look like a sitting duck - by the end of the second he was basically done - at least knew what he was doing in there and could box to some degree.

 

I didn't say what his status was, I said he no longer had the power in his right hand and that is unarguable ,he didn't. The papers said it ,he said it ,and the films of his last fights absolutely shout it!

 

Yes Tyson was fighting someone from his own generation in Lewis. For Joe Louis to be as far gone as Tyson was against Lennox we have to imagine Joe being as poor versus Walcott in 1951. And I can't imagine even comeback Joe ever looking as bad against Walcott.

However, Tyson, like Joe Louis was not getting knocked out by anyone who was not champion level even at that time.

 

imo Marciano's left hook ,"came of age," against Harry Mathews.

 

He did have power in his right hand. He knocked guys down with it. Just because he wasn't best able to utilise it versus Rocky does not mean it was not there. You know this but I will remind you anyway, compared to using a left left hand If you miss a right hand your facing the wrong way. Older fighters have experience but need more time. Why expose yourself once you have slowed down? Veteran fighters will only punch if they know they can land. How many rights did old Holmes throw? It does not necessarily make them less effective if they have a great left hand but they are more sparing with their work.

Rockys crowding style neutralized Louis in much the way Charlie goldman trained Arturo Godoy had years earlier.

 

Once again,NO.He knocked ONE guy down with it, and couldn't follow up and get him out of there,and this was a guy who had been stopped multiple times.To argue Louis still had his power is idiotic ,it flies in the face of all logical evidence to the contrary.

 

Power enough to knock one guy down with it is power enough. It was a heavy well timed, recent knock down. Agramante put up a spirited, game performance, this was the great Joe Louis he was fighting after all.

Incidentally Cleveland Williams did not knock Agramante down at all.

Again, this is not the real Joe Louis just a reduced version still capable at contender level.

I'm not saying anything delusional here. Contenders have earned title shots and became champions with less impressive wins behind them than Joe's 51'campaign. He was a legit contender but he happened to be a declining superstar at the same time.