Was Louis more shot against Marciano than Tyson was against Lewis?

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by emallini, Dec 26, 2015.


  1. HerolGee

    HerolGee Loyal Member banned Full Member

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    Whats to pretend? joe said it out loud that he needed to pay a tax bill. Do you want to ring his accountant to verify that? no, its public knowledge.

    U sure act odd when you are losing an argument. but don't let me stop u self destructing, you just go ahead mate keep claiming joe didn't come back to foot his taxes.
     
  2. The Mongoose

    The Mongoose I honor my bets banned

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    He did face Cominsky, twice.

    It was Sheppards last fight, not sure he was officially retired though.

    Valdes could certainly be stretched as a prospect that would be labeled a contender in the near future. I was thinking of him
    But I can concede, quality opponent though.

    He faced Bivins in Nov. 48

    No. I listed Layne and Flynn. ....you even just questioned Flynn when I listed him. You listed Valentino who also works.

    Apparently you should wake up, since you are taking credit for names I listed.
     
  3. The Mongoose

    The Mongoose I honor my bets banned

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    You cut one phrase from an entire post, fabricated what it was concerning and wrote a response to your own fabrication.

    In this instance, I typed that phrase in preface of my own thoughts.
     
  4. The Mongoose

    The Mongoose I honor my bets banned

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    Man, unicorns aren't real, there is no evidence.

    You sure act odd when losing an argument. But go ahead self destruct and keep insisting on the existence of mythical animals. I feel bad for you.
     
  5. mcvey

    mcvey VIP Member Full Member

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    He didn't face COMISKEY during that time period, his two exhibitions with him were on Sep 30th and Dec 16th both in 1948.

    He didn't face Bivins in an exhibition during that time period either, he faced him on Nov17th 1948 and they had a real bout onAug15th 1951

    From until Jan 1st 1947 until Jan 1st 1949 Sheppard won 3 of his last 11 fights, he was no contender at that stage of his career



    Louis was still an active fighter until March 1st 1949.I questioned Flynn, and Ed Morbius corrected me ,I accepted that and admitted I was wrong ,you should try it sometime, it isn't half as painful as you seem to fear it will be.
    The conceding of Valdes is a positive start, as is the attempt at humour.
     
  6. The Mongoose

    The Mongoose I honor my bets banned

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    You didn't specify time in that post.

    Louis and Bivins shared a ring in the exhibition.

    But was Sheppard retired? It doesn't seem to be the case. He did give no. 3 rated Payne a hard fight and a scare in the rematch despite reportedly in bad shape, so he wasn't off radar.

    The issue was you said I listed nobody but claimed you listed two men that I actually brought up first.

    I admit to being wrong when I actually am wrong concerning a fact. In this instance I am conceding to the point that it can argued Valdes should not be labeled as a genuine contender in 1950.
     
  7. mcvey

    mcvey VIP Member Full Member

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    Whether Sheppard was officially retired or not is irrelevant isn't it ? He was no longer a contender and his results emphatically illustrate it!

    Louis and Bivins did not share a ring during the time period you indicated below.
    "Louis fought a slew of dark exhibitions against genuine contenders that were often described as real all out fights to prepare for Charles."
    Do we agree on this?


    You have made just about the most convoluted admission of an error I have ever read ,Mendoza possibly accepted .
    Wouldn't it be so much simpler to just say, yeah I was wrong on Valdes?

    His record at that time is undeniably that of a journeyman 14 wins in 21 fights losing to nobodies and suffering the indignity of having as fight called a no contest for not trying the only name of any substance was the novice Archie McBride 12-1-0 and McBride beat him.
    ps McBride was later managed by the novelist Budd Shulberg
    .
     
  8. The Mongoose

    The Mongoose I honor my bets banned

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    I disagree, he gave the no. 3 contender a hard fight in defeat and earned a rematch, that would put him in the mix.

    And you appear to be factually wrong about him being retired.

    Because there is no real right or wrong regarding Valdes. Its like I would say Big Foot Martin lost to many contenders, even though most were still a few years away from ring ratings. I can argue that statement as being true, but....

    Future contender maybe more appropriate,

    All true but Valdes did become more consistent and successful from 1950.
     
  9. HerolGee

    HerolGee Loyal Member banned Full Member

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    you'll need to forgive me for assuming you were, in quoting my post, replying to my post concerning Louis needing to fight to pay tax. It seems you were actually replying to someone elses point whilst quoting me?


    But if your post concerns some other point in someone elses post, why are you quoting mine?

    u funny man. twice in a row now. perhaps you are trying to save face after seeing your mistake, by pretending you were replying to some other point now.
     
  10. The Mongoose

    The Mongoose I honor my bets banned

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    For what?

    Your funny, four times in a row, are you trying to save face after realizing your error about the unicorns.
     
  11. mcvey

    mcvey VIP Member Full Member

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    Who gave who a "hard fight"?

    Valdes couldn't have become more successful or consistent between1948 and 1950 because he didn't fight during those 2 years ,so that narrows it down appreciably!
    Okay you find it impossible to accept/admit you are wrong , it's fairly common, disappointing, demeaning, and self-denigrating , but common.
     
  12. The Mongoose

    The Mongoose I honor my bets banned

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    Sheppard vs Payne 1

    Well, we know he fought Louis 3 times from 48 to 50. But of course my actual comment was "from 1950" but feel free to make up whatever quote you want and respond to it with words ending in i n g.
     
  13. mcvey

    mcvey VIP Member Full Member

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    Can you give a primary source that shows Payne was ranked number 3 when he fought Sheppard in 1948,I can't see him rated above number 8 ,and then only fleetingly.

    In 47. Payne had 10 fights W5 L4 D1
    In 49 .8 fights W3 L5
    So it can only have been during1948.
    And let's not forget ,Sheppard lost both those Payne fights
    the first by ko ,and the second was his last fight!


    How does that qualify him as a contender?
    NB. Sheppard never fought again after the last Payne fight in Jan 1949 ,he sparred in an exhibition with Louis in Oct of that year. What do you want a newspaper clipping from a washed up fighter that he formally announces his retirement?

    You are really desperate to salvage something here aren't you?:patsch

    Valdes was a nobody in1950, I don't think he was ranked until 1953,so he is an irrelevance .

    You are now saying I fabricated those quotes myself ie I am lying?
    If I provide the provenance for them ,will you then say on this thread I apologise, I was wrong?

    I can provide whatever words you wish , there's no shortage of adjectives to describe someone incapable of admitting they are wrong. Delusional,disfunctional,how about diabolical?

    Name your preference,we aim to please.

    Do you know, being proved wrong, though sometimes educational , [as Ed has done to me,] is often irksome, but when it's by someone you actively dislike ie Me it must be a real pain in the a*se.:hey
    ps Now, how deep is that hole you are still digging for yourself?:lol:
     
  14. The Mongoose

    The Mongoose I honor my bets banned

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    Payne rated 3
    Sheppard rated 7

    Prior to their fight.


    Pittsburg Press October, 6 1948

    https://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1144&dat=19481006&id=Iz4bAAAAIBAJ&sjid=OE0EAAAAIBAJ&pg=1534,2283272&hl=en
     
  15. The Mongoose

    The Mongoose I honor my bets banned

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    Not an irrelevance in hindsight.

    Will you? I said nothing about Nino improving and becoming more consistent from 48 to 50, yet you atttributed that claim to me. Now see, here we have another factual error from you. Wrong again.


    This last bit is self indulgent rubbish, I conceded to Valdes but you haven't given up the argument. But no, I did not make a factual error as you have done, I explained my logic in picking Valdes, but You made a fair point I won't argue. But you just aren't happy with that.