Was Luis Sarria the real, secret trainer of Muhammad Ali?

You read the tea leaves correctly: this is all really about how much @klompton2 has an irrational hatred of Dundee (he’s trashed him in multiple threads, usually not even in ways that have anything to do with the topic of the thread ... he sees red for some reason whenever Dundee’s name comes up) and he backed himself into a corner and claimed Sarria was always the head coach. And he cannot distance himself from it.

He first said it was true because he had studied film of Ali training when the press was invited to camp and Dundee was doing interviews — and extrapolated from that (somehow) that Dundee had no role beyond interviews and Sarria putting Ali through some calisthenics made him head trainer. Later he shifted and literally used links that said nothing but “Sarria doesn’t speak English” to prove that Sarria was head coach — he actually explained his logic is that explains why he never got credit for being the true trainer. (I guess if there’s an English-speaking masseuse in Loma’s corner, he must be the real trainer because he doesn’t speak Russian or whatever.)

Keep in mind that Mr. @klompton2 considers himself a master researcher and author (he self-published a book), which makes me wonder how his biases his books must have if

Did you even read the story I linked?

https://vault.si.com/vault/1965/05/24/man-in-the-champs-corner

Ali (then Clay) goes through a list of some of the things HE credits Dundee with teaching him. It’s straight from his mouth.

And it became the arrangement that Dundee, like the rest of the people involved in the camp, showed up for camp to do their jobs. Just like Sarria did. When Ali was living in Chicago, Sarria was not “training” him or working with him or even massaging him ... he did that when Ali was training for a fight.

But that same article has Dundee and Ali in the gym in Miami after a workout BEFORE they were leaving for a training camp up north. So at this point in his career, Dundee is a regular, daily presence when Ali is working out in the Fifth Street Gym.

Hubert Mizell, who covered young Ali as his job (beat) for the Associated Press (world’s largest press syndicate) writes of going to the Fifth Street Gym for stories all the time (on slow days) — stories that were carried across the country and around the world — and finding Ali and Dundee. He also mentions Sarria as the guy who would rub Ali down after the workouts. He also calls Dundee the trainer.

https://www.tampabay.com/archive/1993/02/19/champ/

That’s a witness telling you it’s completely different than you want it to be. Sarria put Ali through his conditioning paces. That’s a damned valuable role and history has recorded that. It is not the role of head trainer.

Is Ali lying? Mizell? Was Sarria lying about his role? Pacheco (who says Sarria was the masseuse and conditioning guy)? How is it you know more about this than they do?

 

Actually Archie wanted to humble his fighters. He told Ali he had to sweep the kitchen and do chores. Ali walked.

 

If you’ll take time to read it, I’ve twice linked an article where Ali credits Dundee with teaching him a lot of boxing technique — mentioning specific things

Same article, Dundee lays out the game plan for the Sonny Liston rematch:

https://vault.si.com/vault/1965/05/24/man-in-the-champs-corner

Game over.

Or else you know the truth and everybody else is lying.

 

You asked for an example of Ali saying Dundee ever taught him anything. I gave you his own words and he mentioned pretty much every basic punch.

That is proof from his own mouth that Dundee taught him boxing technique.

You asked for ONE example of Dundee making a game plan. I gave you one. Now you want to make it about how well Ali followed that plan. Classic bait and switch. And he planted and waited for Liston to throw the ‘anchor punch’ (which he also threw successfully against Cleveland Williams, to effect but not for a knockdown, contrary to popular belief) — he was not running when he landed the punch.

Is it your contention that Dundee wasn’t in camp with Ali no matter where it was held? That has nothing to do with anything. Dundee came in for training camp. So did Sarria, unless you are maintaining that Luis moved to Chicago and then New Jersey to work with Ali between fights. I don’t see how Dundee not working with Ali when he was not in training somehow makes Dundee not his trainer.

Bottom line, none of what you try to say about Dundee makes Sarria his ****ing trainer. Not in any way whatsoever. He exercised Ali, much like a stable boy exercises a racehorse, but that doesn’t make the stable boy the horse’s trainer. He massaged Ali, and he was really good at it, but rubbing someone down doesn’t make them a trainer.

I’ve asked a few times but are you trying to say Eddie Futch never trained Frazier or Holmes or Norton because he didn’t move in with them and teach them everything they know about boxing? How is that different from Dundee?

The bottom line is whatever you think of Dundee’s role, however you wish to minimize him, ALI himself says different. And NO ONE has ever been quoted saying Sarria had any role as trainer.

So what the **** are you even trying to argue? What is your point?

 

Dundee taught him how to throw them better, how to best use them.

Read the words.

The fact that you are given evidence in the word of the man who would most know — Muhammad Ali — and decide ‘well it doesn’t fit my narrative, he must by lying’ says all that needs to be said about you.

 

OK, so you believe you’re right, Ali was lying, Sarria was the real Wizard of Oz behind the Ali curtain.

Even if Sarria denies it, you insist.

Got it.

Oh, and don’t put words in my mouth. Dundee was the trainer, obviously. Ali says so, everyone says so. Sarria was the conditioning coach and masseuse — Sarria says so, Pacheco says so, every journalist who was ever around that team says so.

You want to cite some sources for your assertions? Because I’ve given you plenty that back mine. Can you establish that Dundee was rarely at Deer Lake (if by that you mean he didn’t stay there between camps, you’re right — why would a trainer stay at a camp when his fighter is not in training)? Can you establish that Sarria lived there year-round, even when Ali was off at his houses in Chicago or New Jersey? And if he did, what does that matter if Ali wasn’t there except when in training camp?

 

You think people are lying when they say something that doesn’t fit your narrative.

You think Ali was part of a conspiracy to hide the fact that Sarria was his real trainer and he said this to keep it covered up? LOL.

I see that now.