Was Luis Sarria the real, secret trainer of Muhammad Ali?

Don’t ask questions if you don’t want answers. You seem to resent it when that happens.

And please don’t get into name-calling and especially forms of mental disorders as you did above. It’s not a good look and there are almost certainly people on this board who suffer from autism or have friends or family who do.

If your want to discuss boxing, that’s what this is for. The whole stalking thing is really creepy.

 

Sarria was the conditioning coach. He existed. That was his job. How can you say they didn’t exist? Does the occupation have to be listed in a textbook before you recognize it? He was in charge of Ali’s conditioning. And massaging him. That’s it.

I don’t know what in the world it would take to convince you that Dundee was actually in the gym with Ali in Miami other than actual people interviewing them together at the time, other articles noting it, actual VIDEO of them there ... yet you think from the very start of Ali’s career, beginning with his pro debut, Dundee never spent more than a few days with him in the gym before each fight?

Can you cite a single source that says Dundee skipped Ali’s training camps or was only there for a few days? No, you haven’t. You just say it and thus you say it is so.

I have maintained that Angelo Dundee was Ali’s trainer. Ali says he was his trainer. Sarria never claims to be the trainer but you decide he is because you and Klompton say so.

I don’t know what to do. I’ve shown you actual video of Ali saying Dundee was his trainer. You keep saying he’s a liar.

Did you read the article where Ali credits Dundee with teaching him early in his career? Did he make that up. Are you saying he’s lying there? Because otherwise you have to accept what the man said at his word — but, no, YOU know better than Ali who trained him.

There is no video nor written account where there is a single named, attributed source claiming Sarria was Ali’s trainer. Nothing.

 

I’m glad. Now you’ll stop putting words in my mouth.

You finally conceded what I was telling you all along: Dundee was there every day early in Ali’s career.

Ali talks in the Sports Illustrated article I linked about things he learned in those years FROM DUNDEE. Yes he knew how to fight — but Dundee refined him, showed him how to better use his jab, how to better use certain punches.

I never once said Dundee spent every single moment with Ali from the moment he turned pro until he retired. Nor did Sarria — will you concede that? Do you know that there were times (especially during a 3-year layoff over the draft thing) where Ali did not train, and some of that was down time between one fight and the start of the next camp. Which I’ve been trying to tell you.

But when Ali had training camps, Dundee was most definitely there. You haven’t yet come up with one iota of proof or any source to back up the idea that Dundee just got off the plane basically and went straight to the arena on fight night. You know why? Because it’s not true.

In that article, it says when Ali was able to fight again (after the Supreme Court ruling) that Dundee convinced him to come down to Miami to train. It doesn’t say Sarria did it.

Sarria had a defined role: he put Ali through exercises (you can’t get it through your head that he was being employed in this capacity as a conditioning coach so I’ll cease to use that term, even though he fulfilled that role exactly as it is defined today ... Dundee and Ali were ahead of their time) and to massage him. Period.

Are you saying Dundee wasn’t in Zaire until right before the Foreman fight? Photos say different. Video says different. History says different. He was there, even through the month-long delay when Foreman got cut. He talks about praying there wouldn’t be another delay. He talks about how the boxers trained at the same place and Foreman always trained before Ali ... how does he know this? Because he was THERE. And how they had Ali’s photographer in some of Foreman’s workouts as a spy. How does he know this? Because he was THERE. Why did they need a spy? Because they wanted to know what Foreman was doing so they could devise a game plan (which Ali abandoned when he couldn’t keep Foreman from cutting off the ring, so he adapted). There is stuff out there where Dundee talks about this game plan and how Ali then “made me look stupid” by abandoning it and inventing the rope-a-dope.

I can post Ali’s own words on what Dundee did as a trainer — calling him one of the greatest trainers no less — and how with a talent like him the job of the trainer was to scout opponents and tell him “what style to fight” against those opponents and look for flaws in his (Ali’s) game and help him correct them.

Why do you deny the man’s own words?

I never say “Dundee was the puppet master and Ali was stupid and it was all Dundee.” You made that up as a strawman. If I said it, find it and quote me. I said he was Ali’s TRAINER.

You want to say Sarria was the head trainer. Do ahead. I cannot convince you otherwise, which is fine. But when ALI can’t convince you otherwise and SARRIA can’t convince you otherwise and PACHECO (who was there all the way through) can’t convince you otherwise and DUNDEE can’t convince you otherwise and numerous journalists who were there to witness can’t convince you otherwise and NO SINGLE SOURCE CAN BE CITED TO BACK YOU UP, you’re just hanging onto a fantasy with nothing (not even some good smoke and mirrors) to support it.

 

Pop quiz time. See if you can identify the person shown here in the gym with Muhammad Ali (and if you maintain Ali wasn’t trained by Angelo Dundee, explain what the hell he’s doing in all these pictures):

https://www.google.com/search?q=ali...JA_enUS815US816&hl=en-US#imgrc=TcBvz2EzPAx-MM

https://www.google.com/search?q=ali...JA_enUS815US816&hl=en-US#imgrc=ZHkyWXjC1Fb7tM

https://www.google.com/search?q=ali...JA_enUS815US816&hl=en-US#imgrc=sRWe9BHKXO5jxM

https://www.google.com/search?q=ali...JA_enUS815US816&hl=en-US#imgrc=R02KYjV2cuWLvM

https://www.google.com/search?q=ali...US#imgrc=R02KYjV2cuWLvM&imgdii=bKoZSFLlKJoOnM

https://www.google.com/search?q=ali...JA_enUS815US816&hl=en-US#imgrc=_Mr0YYAPcHH51M

https://www.google.com/search?q=ali...JA_enUS815US816&hl=en-US#imgrc=e4eSbQvLzo0trM

You will note that these are from different points in Ali’s career, not just his beginning days in Miami. You will note that they’re taken, in many cases, at gyms other than the Fifth Street Gym. Including Dundee wrapping (or possibly unwrapping) Ali’s hands in Deer Lake (where Dubblechin apparently thinks Dundee never set foot).

 

So are you saying Dundee was Ali’s manager now? What a change in tune.

I’ll give you some links to credible sources (including Ali) saying Dundee was trainer if you’d like — is The New York Times good enough? Encyclopedia Brittanica? Or do you know more than them?

Read the story. Read the quotes from Ali saying Dundee taught him boxing-related technical things. It’s right there. You just don’t want to believe it.

 

Do you want me to go through this thread and count how many times you’ve said “Ali got his own camp in Deer Lake, Pa.” and in the same breath said Dundee never got near his training camps except to arrive right before the fight?

What’s your point of saying he trained in Deer Lake over and over and over and over and over again? Because you say Sarria lived there (you never clarified if this means when Ali was between camps and wasn’t living there, nor did you cite a source, as usual) and make your point that Dundee wasn’t around.

Photographic evidence of Dundee working hand wraps with Ali in Deer Lake. Now answer me what the **** he’s doing that for if he was never around in a training capacity. (And doing so throughout his career as shown in those and many other photos, including being in his corner during sparring talking to Ali between rounds when he’s got the headgear on.)

 

So he never used that particular skill a lot. Did you see how he taught Ali to make a weapon of his jab instead of flicking it?

I seem to remember a fight where he did that. Oh yeah, it was ALL of them.

And the uppercuts? Go watch the Frazier fights. And the hook, too.

Jeez, you really are a piece of work. I put it right in front of you in Ali’s own words that Dundee was teaching him things — you know, like a TRAINER — and I show you video and quotes where Ali says Dundee was one of the greatest trainers AND explains exactly what his role as trainer was and ... you just say ‘nah Sarria was there taking him through his sit-ups, that makes him the head trainer.’

When you find sources to back up that Dundee was never in training camp, that Sarria was the head trainer and all the other things you’re going with despite having zero to back it up, you come see me now.