Was Marciano superior defensively to Tyson, and Frazier?

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by swagdelfadeel, Jan 12, 2021.

Was Marciano a better defensive fighter than Tyson and Frazier?

  1. No. It's not even close enough to warrant a discussion.

    83.0%
  2. Better than Tyson, worse than Frazier.

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  3. Better than Frazier, worse than Tyson.

    9.4%
  4. Better than both

    7.5%
  1. swagdelfadeel

    swagdelfadeel Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Using this logic, Marciano had a better defense than any heavyweight in history. Sadly this logic is still better than Gazelle's.
     
  2. swagdelfadeel

    swagdelfadeel Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    I didn't want to namedrop you cause it's a hilariously embarrassing stance which reeks of bias. I think those stats would be a bit different, if the best men Frazier and Tyson ever faced were 2 38 year old former greats, a 37 year old Louis, and a past it Charles and they had the fortune of defending against men like C0ckell.

    This is also a hilariously flawed, and deceptive way of gauging fights (if your compubox stats are even true of course) considering not all of Marciano, Frazier, and especially Dempsey's fights were filmed. Furthermore, those compubox stats also take into account post-prime performances of both fighters, as well as fights when both were completely shot, while Marciano never reached this level of decline as he retired far before. I take it you've been training with Choklab? Your dishonesty game is getting better and better. Keep at it this rate, you may very well overtake him. Will need decades more experience though, Chok's on a level of his own :lol:
     
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  3. Balder

    Balder Well-Known Member Full Member

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    Wow, I never investigated it with this detail. But I am glad my observations are confirmed.


    Rocky fought a great deal of the BEST fighters of all time. Walcott, Charles, Moore, Louis -these are some of the greatest and most accurate combination punchers around, and if THEY could not connect then Rocky has a better defense than many posters can come to terms with. Anyone that says Rocky had a bad defense can be considered un- knowledgeable about the sport.
     
  4. Gazelle Punch

    Gazelle Punch Boxing Addict Full Member

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    It’s compubox and of course it’s to be taken with a grain of salt. But even when you factor in strength of competition (Tysons competition was older on average then Marcianos FYI) age (Marciano and Frazier have similar enough career arcs) its all pretty close. And let’s face it it’s not really close. Not like it’s off by a percentage point or two.
    You’re ignorant problem is you can’t accept that any pro argument is anything but a fan boy argument. Grow up and listen. You may learn something. I don’t think Marciano is indestructible or the best defensive fighter ever. Just that he was better then given credit for and better then the names you mentioned. And he was. If you actually analyze the fights you would see he’s extremely hard to hit. Now do you actually have any proof of your claims? Because stats, all time great trainers and fighters disagree with your poorly based opinion. Or are you going to revert to your fall back of posting a laughing face and falsely calling someone a fan boy because you can’t articulate nor prove your “opinion”
     
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  5. George Crowcroft

    George Crowcroft 'Snarky Little Gobshite' - IntentionalButt Full Member

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    Punch stats will never be a viable argument. Watch the fighter's fight. If one is easier to hit, and getting hit more the others, then there's a pretty damn good chance that he's the one with the worst defence.

    That's obviously Marciano.
     
  6. Gazelle Punch

    Gazelle Punch Boxing Addict Full Member

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    You would be wrong to assert that punch stats arent a viable argument they are the only thing you have when asserting defense. This isn’t even a debate. You CANT debate this...literally. It’s like saying 2 + 2 isn’t 4. The object of defense in boxing is to not get hit. Not only was Marciano statistically far and away the winner if you actually watch the fights closely you would see how hard he was to hit cleanly. Most of you keep bringing up an out of prime fight against Louis. Most of the rest of his career he was more polished. Let me add no one thinks Tyson or Frazier were bad defensively because they weren’t. They were excellent fighters.
    You literally state in your argument above if one fighter is getting hit more...well the stats are right there for you and he was hit less.
     
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  7. choklab

    choklab cocoon of horror Full Member

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    This is a very good post. There is nothing more to add other than Marciano did not look as smooth or as fluid doing it compared to Tyson and Frazier who had better rhythm.

    The important thing is effectiveness. All three were more effective than given credit for.
     
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  8. George Crowcroft

    George Crowcroft 'Snarky Little Gobshite' - IntentionalButt Full Member

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    I don't believe the 'stats'. Never have, never will. Watching them, with my own eyes which I trust a lot, I can see that he was much easier to hit clean than Tyson or Frazier.
     
  9. choklab

    choklab cocoon of horror Full Member

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    I don’t think we can be so sure that Marciano was getting hit the most in title fights. Tyson took an almighty amount of blows against Buster Douglas. Without counting the blows, In that one fight, it appeared Tyson had to have taken more punches than Marciano did in his first three defences.

    And getting hit like that from Douglas, over and over, whilst he was stranded in no mans land, buying feints ...was strictly a technical defensive default wasn’t it? Defensively it was clueless.

    Guys get hit more in the fights they lose. We saw Frazier and Tyson lose fights. So although it might be unfair to say that, the superior defensive technique didn’t quite translate to being hit less did it?

    perhaps if we saw Marciano deteriorate and age to the point he was losing fights, then we could say he got hit more times. But sticking to historical accuracy, we can’t say that he did.

    I was going to vote “better than Frazier worse than Tyson” option based purely on aesthetics but since the discussion has drifted to who got hit more, it seems being the more aesthetically defensive didn’t really prevent Tyson being hit less in competitive fights. As soon as a fight became competitive, Tyson started shipping an awful lot of punishment.

    I mean really it’s a bit of a bum question because neither of them were defensive fighters. It’s like asking who was the more effective offensive fighter between Johnny Nelson of the Carlos Deleon fight and Bob Pastor of the first Joe Louis fight.
     
    Last edited: Jan 13, 2021
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  10. Reinhardt

    Reinhardt Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Hmm? I'm trying to imagine how much leather Marciano would eat fighting Muhammed Ali. A herd of cattle's worth I'd imagine. On the bright side I don't think Rock would get hit very often by Foreman,, about 2 minutes and 38 seconds worth .
     
  11. choklab

    choklab cocoon of horror Full Member

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    Nobody will ever know. We can however see the punches Tyson and Frazier actually took in real Competitive title fights. And, historically, that’s just the way it is. As it happened.
     
    Last edited: Jan 13, 2021
  12. mark ant

    mark ant Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Tyson and Frazier had great head movement by comparison, both were far more skilled than Marciano.
     
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  13. mark ant

    mark ant Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Count how many of Ali`s jabs that Frazier slipped in their first clash no way could Marciano have done that and Tyson simply moved his head more than Marciano as part of the peek a boo, his whole style was a Duran counter/pressure style, there`s no reason he wouldn`t try and slip shots in more competetive fights under Rooney`s guidance, he was the greatest fighter in history at slipping and countering the jab and would have destroyed Douglas with Rooney in his corner.
     
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  14. Bah Lance

    Bah Lance Member Full Member

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    "But but but he looks so hittable"- some guy watching the fight on film.
     
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  15. Gazelle Punch

    Gazelle Punch Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Don’t disagree with that but one fight won’t mess up the averages over a career. Nice try though