Was Marciano superior defensively to Tyson, and Frazier?

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by swagdelfadeel, Jan 12, 2021.

Was Marciano a better defensive fighter than Tyson and Frazier?

  1. No. It's not even close enough to warrant a discussion.

    83.0%
  2. Better than Tyson, worse than Frazier.

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  3. Better than Frazier, worse than Tyson.

    9.4%
  4. Better than both

    7.5%
  1. Colonel Sanders

    Colonel Sanders NSB defector Full Member

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    This is also on film.

     
  2. WAR01

    WAR01 In the 7.2% Full Member

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    As the literal Saint Preems most devote follower I can confirm that Rocky is utter garbage and a modern SMW.
     
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  3. choklab

    choklab cocoon of horror Full Member

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    Thank you. I also hope all is well and carries on to be with you also.

    now hang on, I merely offered an alternative view. Evander Holyfield and Muhammad Ali are all time great fighters but they might not necessarily have been the absolute best versions of themselves when Tyson and Frazier fought them, which is a popular opinion about the Ezzard that Rocky fought. I personally feel that both were indeed capable of duplicating prime results even if they were not quite at their zenith...which regardless of them being greater to Ezzard Charles...is a factor true of Charles’s stage of career when he fought Marciano. I even said Charles, as ex champion, had done as much as Holyfield and Ali had to earn a shot, which he had. That isn’t dishonest. Look at who Charles beat to get that fight. Is it really that uncomparable to what Holyfield did to challenge Tyson and what Ali did to challenge Frazier and Foreman?

    but the whole point is I wasn’t talking about hindsight was I? I was talking about face value.The situation at the time without the benefit of hindsight. It is the truth that Tyson was expected to win. That there were fears about Evanders heart problems. I even said “even though Evander went onto better things”. I am allowed to present a different way of seeing things without it having to be deliberately dishonest.

    what is so dishonest in saying Charles and Ali were of a similar age when challenging for titles as the ex champion? I was thinking more of Ali vs Foreman. Both Ali and Charles represented a legitimate threat at that time.

    I am a huge fan of how good Douglas turned out to be in Tokyo. I have always agreed with this. But there is nothing dishonest in mentioning that on face value, knowing all there was to know going into that fight, that Tyson was expected to win that fight by all the experts. And at huge odds.
     
  4. Soxial experimennt 2.0

    Soxial experimennt 2.0 Trans and proud banned Full Member

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    I still disagree
     
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  5. swagdelfadeel

    swagdelfadeel Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    I um... I don't even know what to say. Are you suggesting the film is doctored or something of that sort?
     
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  6. Soxial experimennt 2.0

    Soxial experimennt 2.0 Trans and proud banned Full Member

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    no I’m disagreeing with your statement
     
  7. Gazelle Punch

    Gazelle Punch Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Saying Marcianos style was more conducive to better defense isn’t an insult on Frazier of Tyson. Both of which had good to excellent defense. Tyson wasn’t always focused for a lot of his career which I’m sure hurt his numbers but that’s on Tyson. I just think you can’t get over the fact that the numbers don’t go your way. I’m 100 percent confident if they did go your way you’d be plastering them on here as exhibit one. I don’t suppose we will agree on this issue and I’ve made my peace w it lol. Good luck
     
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  8. Glass City Cobra

    Glass City Cobra Boxing Addict Full Member

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    This. Marciano's offense was his defense. Unlike Frazier and Tyson, the way he applied pressure with volume and awkward crouching made his opponents hesitate to throw at him and made them fight to survive while backing off.

    Ali didn't really set up his uppercuts against Frazier. Sometimes he would even lead with them.

    The difference in the Foreman fight was that his roughhouse tactics and guard manipulation set Frazier up for the uppercuts. He used angles to get Frazier to walk right into them and time him as he was bobbing and weaving.
     
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  9. Glass City Cobra

    Glass City Cobra Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Boxers like Frazier and Liston cleared out the division demolishing all the top contenders before they became champions. Hence them not having as many title defenses. They also lost their title to 2 of the greatest ATG boxers in HW history.

    Marciano feasted on weak competition and even when he stepped up, the ranked guys were fairly shopworn and in their 30's. He got out of there and retired before the new crop of prime young fighters showed up. In contrast Tyson and Frazier continued fighting past their best yet still managed to pull off some impressive wins. So people do have a valid point when you keep going on about punch stats while failing to address how he had a relatively smoother career in terms of opposition.

    The fact Marciano was going life and death with Don Cokkel and an ancient ex light heavyweight Moore shows that the writing was on the wall.
     
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  10. Flash24

    Flash24 Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Your right, Marciano wasn't in either of those fighters class as far as defensive ability is concerned.
     
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  11. Flash24

    Flash24 Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Also Foreman actually would push Frazier off balance, which was the main reason Foreman beat him so easily. Foreman possibly the strongest heavyweight in history used his unmatched strength as a key part of his fight game.
    Very few heavyweights in history could handle the physicality of prime George Foreman.
     
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  12. Gazelle Punch

    Gazelle Punch Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Marciano dominated ****ell and I agree and even started he had easier opponents. And Moore beats everyone who Frazier beat barring Ali. Don’t know where your coming from but should prob read the whole convos.
    FYI would never insult any of those fighters u named great champs
     
    Last edited: Jan 14, 2021
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  13. choklab

    choklab cocoon of horror Full Member

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    This is true of Tyson and Frazier too. Which is why I made the comment that this thread is a bit stupid. It’s asking which offensive fighter was the best defensive fighter. It’s like asking if Bob pastor of the first Joe Louis fight was more offensive than Johnny Nelson of the Carlos Deleon fight.

    so is the question really who got hit more?

    Like you say these types of fighters have Different methods but each had the other guy guessing..,,

    Marciano certainly made it look smoother because he kept winning. But that doesn’t mean he was never matched to lose. Not every champion was going to get through Marcianos championship fights without a loss. If a champion retires before he starts losing the temptation is to say the guy only had easy title fights.

    it works both ways.

    Who knows, If Tyson beat Douglas then retired people would focus more on how ill prepared much of Tysons challengers were for his title defences?

    History might also have been very different had Frazier retired right after beating Ali. People would focus more on the lay off Ali had even more than they do now then knock Joe for bypassing the WBA tournament.

    Would Marciano losing the title actually make the opposition look better?
     
    Last edited: Jan 14, 2021
  14. Glass City Cobra

    Glass City Cobra Boxing Addict Full Member

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    No he did not dominate Cokkel. I watched that entire fight with Marciano commentating. He himself admitted Cokkel was tougher and more skilled than he thought and had to make adjustments mid-fight. If the fighter himself is saying that, your assessment is pretty much irrelevant, no offense.

    Moore does not beat everyone on Frazier's resume barring Ali. What gives you that impression? Moore was 38 years old and had been in more than 150 fights! You're telling me THAT version of Moore cleans out the entire early 1970's HW division? He goes undefeated against Jones, Machen, Chuvalo, Bonavena 2x, Quarry 2x, Ellis 2x, Bugner, and Mathis? When did Moore ever put together a string of wins like that undefeated?

    a 38 year old Moore might not even be Frazier's 3rd best win.

    I don't remember insulting anyone. It's a FACT that they were past their prime and had been in many wars. Those are not insults, they are stats.
     
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  15. Glass City Cobra

    Glass City Cobra Boxing Addict Full Member

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    It is not true of Tyson and Frazier. Only partly true. They both did pressure guys and tried to force them to back up but in totally different ways.

    -Tyson cut the ring off and then stood at mid range to slip punches and counter with heavy bombs. Once he got the range and timing of his opponents down, he would start unloading powerful 3,4,5 punch combinations upstairs and downstairs with either hand.

    -Frazier used bobbing and weaving with a smooth rhythm to dodge jabs and get inside to batter the body and in fight at close range.

    -Marciano would throw everything but the kitchen sink and was willing to take one to land one and overwhelm with volume, or he would use an awkward crouch to draw a punch to land one big suzie Q or gazelle punch.

    3 completely different approaches. The first 2 are much more geared toward using defense to create offensive opportunities while Marciano used his offense to make up for his lack of defense. If Rocky couldn't bombard his opponent with volume or making them miss with his awkward dipping, he got hit a lot and was perfectly willing to eat a shot or 2 to get close. His guard was not very good, nor was his head movement. He did not have fast feet or reflexes.

    Frazier and Tyson had all of the above. Frazier had a tight cross arm guard and was very good at blocking straight punches, had great upper body movement, and could anticipate and roll with shots. He was a nightmare for guys who threw a lot of jabs and fought off the back foot. Tyson had a solid peak a boo guard, arguably the best head movement in the division's history, incredible athleticism/reflexes and timing to dodge entire combinations (not just one punch) and return with a devastating blow of his own using the built up momentum from him evading and ducking.

    Nobody was "guessing" with Marciano. He had a 1 track mind and not a lot of variety. To quote one of his own opponents, "he just threw more than anyone else". His stamina and non stop pressure were his offense and his offense was his defense for the most part. The Moore fight is a perfect example of this where we see More slipping and dodging many punches and Rocky is missing by a mile with some of them, but Moore's older age and Rocky's relentless pressure eventually breaks through his defense and knocks him down.

    We now have the benefit of hindsight. You are making this more complicated than it needs to be.

    We can look up the records of Rocky's opponents and see how good they are on film. A lot of them simply weren't. Even the ones who were, several of them had seen better days before Rocky faced them.

    That's my point. No need for all these hypotheticals about if Tyson beat Douglas and retired or if Rocky lost. Rocky was a bit like Lebron James in the Eastern conference. Sure, those were the best players in his division but it wasn't a particularly strong division. Had Lebron stayed with Cleveland and managed to win a championship then died tragically young, his career would greatly resemble Rcoky's in the basketball sense.

    And Rocky retired relatively young without having been in too many big wars the way Tyson and Frazier did. That skews the numbers and stats for who got hit/defense/etc whether you want to accept it or not.
     
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