Was Marvin Hagler better than Muhammad Ali?

But that’s a separate point and contention to the question I posed.

Also, I see you have made the same comparison re Leonard and Ali’s opposition - bear in mind, the version of Leonard that Hagler fought was more or less 5 years inactive, 30 years old and the smaller guy in natural terms.

 

Hagler won the negotiations with Leonard — he took home an estimated $20M to Ray’s $12M. Now this doesn’t matter to fans because the money went into his Marvin’s bank account and not ours, but he hadn’t had as many generation-changing PPV-level paydays.

Marvin shrewdly realized that money can be exchanged for goods and services. In this case, LOTS of good and services. Legacy won’t buy you a cup of coffee, much less a car or a house in Italy.

As for the gloves, the ring size and scheduled distance:

1. Middleweight had long been the land of in-between as far as gloves, where either eights or 10-ounce gloves were acceptable to commissions. Below middle it’s eights; above it’s 10s. At 160 for title fights, it was a negotiating point. Honestly I doubt anyone is sure or knows what sized gloves were used in all of Marvin’s previous title fights but this was always a possibility in any of his fights. He chose to trade two ounces for $8M (Ray walked away with about $12M to Marvin’s $20M … that’s about $2M per ounce considering it’s a total of four ounces over two gloves.)

2. We’re talking about two feet of ring here. They fought in a 22-foot ring. Standard was 20 but for title bouts commissions and sanctioning bodies were good with anything from 18 to 24 (and in rare cases probably a tad smaller or bigger. Go look at Roberto Duran-Lou Bizzarro … that’s about a 26-foot ring and some have said even larger; they fought in Pennsylvania in Bizzarro’s hometown; furthermore, they didn’t have any padding under the canvas, making it a ‘fast’ ring for Bizzarro, who ran like a thief — if you think Leonard ‘ran’ in this fight go look at that one. You know what Roberto did? He kept up the pressure and cut off the ring and knocked Lou out. Marvin followed Ray around like a puppy dog).

3. As I’ve pointed out before, the 12-round stipulation is a myth … or at least an excuse. Marvin hadn’t fought a scheduled 15-round fight in 2 1/2 years. I guess Hearns and Mugabi took him to the cleaners in negotiating too if Ray did, because Marvin fought them in 12-rounders. The sanctioning bodies had begun eliminating 15-round title bouts even before Marvin’s last 15-rounder. Those were going the way of the dinosaur … and I’m not sure at this stage Marvin fancied having to labor for 15 rounds anyway — nine minutes for $8M is a heck of a payoff.

So in truth, Marvin beat Ray at his own game. He got the A-side money he so desperately sought. He didn’t get tricked or taken … he got what he wanted. Which was money.

 

The one singular trump card I see Ali having, as well as a few others who, if they were fighting Mahvelous Mahvin, would have also had, and that's an edge in Ring IQ...The ability to unerringly go with the right tactics/strategy/battle plan....the one criteria that I would deem relevant vs the Elite of Hagler's resume. Which is the reason that I would resolutely choose Carlos Monzon over MMH if they ever met...and for those who agreed with the decision of their 1987 bout and chose SRL over Hagler. That seems to b one of the few chinks in Marvin's chemistry as a fighter....certainly nothing more physical about him.

 

Maybe I should have been clearer that I meant career/natural MWs

Duran and Leonard weren't really MWs. Even with Hearns it's arguable. And while Hearns certainly had fantastic technique offensively he wasn't slick in that sense. His offense was his defence, and if his offence was breached he was in trouble.

Hagler struggled a bit with Duran, despite the differences in age and size. He was also supposed to have it much easier against Leonard, in a fight where they both were past their best.

These could have been one offs, but it would have been interesting to have seen him against a natural MW in his prime that had really good boxing skills. Like Kalambay or Nunn, but even Graham would be interesting.

I'm not saying he ducked any of them, mind you, just that it would be interesting to see prime Hagler against that type of fighter.

 

Well, Duran at that stage was aged and four weight classes above his best. That's why it was a bit surprising that he did so well. Also Leonard doing so well surprised most, when both were past their best but Leonard also two weights above his best weight.

As I wrote in the previous post, for these reasons it would be interesting to see prime Hagler against some slick, skilled boxers that were career/natural MWs. That would get a better sense about whether there was something stylistic behind his struggles with Duran and Leonard or it just had to do with them two and/or particular circumstances.

 

Sure, I understand where you’re coming from - not to detract from Leonard’s victory - but at the end of the day, Ray got what he wanted, duration, gloves and ring size - and he obviously viewed the monetary concessions for same as being worth his while.

Ray calculated those concessions to be crucial components to his goal. He had the $$$, he wanted the glory. No argument there.

I understand about the 12 round limit being already somewhat established - but the option to go 15 was still available and it was definitely something Ray didn’t want.

And, if Marvin did get what he wanted, you wouldn’t know it for all his b*tching and moaning after the fight.

And, Hags was psyched into trying to outbox Ray orthodox for the first 2-3 rounds. That didn’t cost Ray a cent. Leonard lived, rent free, in Hagler’s head.

Marv wanted the $$$, the win and the glory and he thought he could get all three.

Here’s a nice thought experiment.

Suppose, after the fight, Mr Fate (or Mr Destiny if you like) confronts Marv and offers to change the outcome (reality) to Hagler W UD - Marv simply has to forgo the $$$ made from the concessions he consented to at the negotiation table.

What would Hags do?

Maybe he would say I don’t give two Fs about the W, now run along Mr Destiny, I’ve got my long awaited $$$, I’m outta here. LOL. Who knows?

Tbh, for his own peace, I would hope that was the way Hags felt about it.

 

It is a silly thread, the one was a heavyweight and the other a middleweight.Heavyweight have never done well on P4P lists. They are heavier, less speed, less techncial, lesss punch output etc

 

HW is doing well on this thread ...

 

Yes, that is the one really good win he has between 80 and 89.

Duran above WW could put on good performances, but was not close to being as good as he was in his prime. He was more or less taken to to school by Benitez and smashed by Hearns. Duran in his 30's and above WW was not the same Duran that dismantled DeJesus and bossed Leonard.

 

No

 

Yes. Hagler was more skilled.

 

Ali has an almost fictionally good resume with incredible amount of ATG's and HoF's on it (prime and dangerous): Foreman, Frazier, Liston, Norton and an entire cast of the likes of Terrell, Ellis, Quarry, Patterson, Chuvalo, Lyle, Shavers etc.

Marvin did have some great wins and iconic fights against Hearns (one of the most highly rated boxing fights ever) and Duran. That, plus he dominated the division for a long, long time.

Pound for pound I'd say Ali, but Marvin was arguably harder to beat in his division, only losing very controversially to Ray Leonard at the end of his career, with his pride and ego getting in the way. Muhammad showed unprepared (or outright fat as a hog against Young) and was toppled by both Frazier and Norton (some would argue twice each of them.) He also ran from the Foreman rematch. Then again, his division was an all-time great era of legends.

 

Barring ring IQ and perhaps mid-fight adjustment, I'd have to take Hagler as the more skilled fighter. His switch-hitting and hidden angles were mind boggling, and he was a great fundamental fighter with excellent punch selection, combinations, and inside game to boot.