Was McCaffrey-Sullivan a bad decision?

Never heard this spin before.

 

McAffrey, of Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, had earned his shot at Sullivan due to his four round win over outstanding British boxer Charley Mitchell at Madison Square Garden in New York City the previous October. He stood five feet eight and a half inches tall and weighed about 165 pounds. This fight had been in the works since the previous February. Organizers had originally planned on hosting it in the garden, but moved it to Cincinnati's Chester Park race track in hopes of finding more friendly authorities there. Ironically, Sullivan was arrested as soon as he made his first public appearance in Cincinnati. He was only released after promising a judge that the scheduled fight would be a mere sparring session and that neither he nor his opponent intended to hurt one another.

McAffrey trained hard for the fight and, because of his smaller stature and build, planned to use his superior technical abilities against the champion. "I'm ten times the boxer Sullivan is," he bragged to reporters. As for Sullivan his only training involved losing twenty-nine pounds to come into the ring at a pudgy 208 pounds.

In the early rounds, Sullivan dominated the action, taking McAffrey to the ropes on several occasions and dropping him multiple times before the close of the third round. As the fight progressed, however, both fighters showed the effects of fighting under the Summer sun. Though McAffrey continued to take the worst of the fighting, Sullivan resorted more often to wrestling tactics that were technically illegal under the Marquess of Queensberry Rules under which this fight took place. In the sixth round, after the champion tackled the challenger to the floor, referee Billy Tate stopped the fight to save McAffrey from further punishment and declared Sullivan the winner. Both fighters subsequently agreed to fight a seventh, unofficial round without a referee present. After the fight, despite obviously losing the match, McAffrey often bragged rightfully about lasting longer in the ring than any other of the champion's previous opponents. Others had lasted more rounds, but not under the Queensberry Rules which specified timed three minute rounds.

 

Everything I have heard suggests that Sullivan won it.

It is also possible that Sullivan might have held back due to the risk of police interference.

Having said that, McCaffrey is the only person who gave Sullivan any sort of competitive fight, anywhere close to his prime.

 

Adam Pollack has studied this fight, using primary sources. He's the man to ask. He's written an amazing book on Sullivan that everyone should have in their library.

 

Check this out, sounds like Sullivan vs Patsy Cardiff was the bad decision. Shades of Jack Johnson vs Jim Battling Johnson?

1885-08-29 John L. Sullivan w disq 7 (finish) Dominick McCaffrey, Chester Driving Park, Cincinnati, Ohio, USA. Referee: Billy Tait. According to the Chicago Tribune, Sullivan v McCaffrey was contracted for six rounds in three-ounce gloves with a draw to be given in the event that both men were still standing at the final bell, and was billed as a contest with gloves that would decide the MoQ championship of the world. However, the Boston Globe account of the affair gives a rather different impression, reporting, the day before, that it was to be a finish fight as per an advertisement that ran in the Enquirer. This is more likely to be closer the truth, as anything other than gloved exhibitions were banned in much of America at the time and promoters would not have wanted to tip off the authorities.

Throughout the contest Sullivan was the aggressor and had McCaffrey over in the third, fourth and fifth rounds, but the latter was making life difficult for the favourite who was beginning to flag during the seventh. Following the fight, the Sunday Boston Globe stated that it had been stopped at 1.45 of the seventh round and given to Sullivan on a foul, the referee stating that he had disqualified McCaffrey for using his legs illegally. The paper went on to say that there had been 26 minutes and 20 seconds on the clock at the finish, broken down by four rounds of three minutes each, one of 3.20, one of 3.15 and one of 1.45, with six minutes lost between rounds. Regarding the breakdown of rounds contested, it would appear that MoQ Rules got mixed up with London Prize Ring Rules. There was no doubt that McCaffrey believed it to be a finish fight and, not expecting it to end at that point, a riot ensued after his brother pulled a gun and clubbed the former lightweight champion, Arthur Chambers, on the head.

Although Sullivan continued his career with fists, he would be claiming the gloved title from there on, despite it being hardly a fight to remember.

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On 17 May 1887, Jake Kilrain challenged Sullivan to decide the championship of America with fists or two-ounce gloves for $2,500 up to $5,000, the winner to receive the Police Gazette Championship Belt. When Sullivan refused Kilrain’s challenge and had failed to cover his deposit, the belt was awarded to the latter on 4 June in Baltimore on condition that he defended it against all comers from either side of the Atlantic. Kilrain was then challenged with knuckles by Jem Smith, who received a draw after 150 minutes (106 rounds) of fighting on 19 December 1887 in France.

Meanwhile, Sullivan, on the verge of defeat, held on to his version of the bare-knuckle championship against Charlie Mitchell in Chantilly, France on 10 March 1888, when a draw was given after 190 minutes of fighting. He then beat Kilrain in his final bare-knuckle defence, in a fight that lasted 136 minutes in Richburg, Mississippi on 8 July 1889.

 

That article is a mass of misinformation.

I wouldn't know where to start with it.

 

Please break down what was bad about the draw decision in the Jack Johnson v Battling Jim Johnson.
AND PLEASE DO SO WITH PRIMARY SOURCES ie RINGSIDE REPORTS.
IF YOU DO NOT RESPOND ,I WILL ASSUME THAT, AS USUAL YOU HAVE ZILCH TO BACK UP YOUR CLAIM.

 

Your as predictable as a broken clock. I was suggesting there were similarities between Sullivan and Johnson, and disputes as to who won the match. That was the point.

In Johnson’s case, we have been over this ad nausea. I posted the NY times report, which goes into detail. Who the F are you to say their report is erroneous? The NY Times writes Johnson was in trouble at the end, and lucky to get a draw. Unforgivable Blackness says Johnson was also lucky to get a draw. Read it if you dare, and don’t; forget to post the entire passage in context : ) I know you won’t!

We know you have to need to believe Jack Johnson won a match. The crowd wasn’t happy with him. Johnson of course didn't bother for a re-match. In fact the French were so upset with him, they tried to strip his title.

 

We have been over it ad nausea, and I would feel
guilty about hijacking this thread ,if I had not provided 3 links for it .
So lets go.
1.The NY TIMES did not have a reporter present, they relied on an AP wire .
2.The French Federation stripped Johnson of their version of the title a month BEFORE the fight.

This was because, according to Theodore Vienne,[ who was both the Director of the Federation, and a Paris promoter,] because of Johnson's failure to defend against Sam Langford, or Jeannette ,and the fact that he had been sentenced to prison in the US,it had absolutely nothing to do with his defence against Battling Jim Johnson, which had not even taken place.


Sam Langford fought Joe Jeannette the very next night in Paris same city ,different venue.
The real title fight was in the Paris Premierland.

Langford fought Jeannette for the vacant French version of the heavyweight title at the Luna Park, next evening.

The French Federation duly stripped Langford of recognition less than a month later, and reinstated Johnson.
This is all so easily verifiable, I wonder you keep repeating such elementary mistakes? .

. I have already posted Ward's account of this fight in its entirety, [that means all of it to you], but ,as you insist I shall do so again. FOR THE LAST TIME.

"When the two men met at the Nouveau Cirque,on December 19th 1913, nothing much happened for two rounds.
Both men were counter punchers,and Battling Jim seemed especially wary.
Inthe third, the champion launched an attack , that sent the younger man reeling.
Then, for no apparent reason, he pulled back.
There were cries of Fake!
Some customers called for their money back.

In fact, the champion had fractured his left forearm slamming the challengers head,and had to fight the next seven rounds with just one hand,clinching whenever he could.

At the end it was the younger man who was breathing hard.The referee declared the bout a draw.
The crowd ,unaware of Johnson's injury hissed both men.
"A terrific hubbub marked the conclusion of a wholly unsatisfactory encounter,"the London Times reported.
2 The audience dispersed, comtinuing to express its disapproval of the whole proceedings". Johnson walked away with just a little over $1000. His contest with Frank Moran would have to be postponed until spring.


That is Ward's verbatim report on the fight taken from" Unforgiveable Blackness".

Now, don't you feel a total ****.:roflatsch:yep:yep:yep
A word of advice , don't dare me to do anything ,remember the last time you did so ,you had to creep into, and then sneak out of the UK because I accepted your challenge to a fight.


If I felt anything other than contempt for you ,I would be embarrassed on your behalf.:yikes

 

I would like to say I missed the days when every thread devolved into a McVey - Mendoza tilt...

 

I would like to say EYE CUD KNOT GEEV A SHEET.

I did engage in the thread to be fair to myself.

I am flattered that you follow my progess through this veil of tears with such assiduousness.