Was Mike Tyson out of prime or was it the step up in competition.

I think after the douglas loss...though he didnt regain his technical skills...tyson sure as hell regained his hunger and ferocity in the 2 ruddock wins....razors being utterly ruined from those 2 battles now also detracts from the magnitude of the wins in 1991....tyson showed an iron chin,stamina and desire in the 2nd fight....i still think 1991 Tyson beats 1991 holy.....

 

I believe that the mental issues that Mike Tyson had, played an immense role in his regression as a fighter, then champion. I think that Cus D Amato sensed that Mike would be like a shooting star, a one hit wonder. Cus did protect his fighters, like Floyd Patterson, who did have some mental shortcomings as a child, later as a young man, he was raised in an orphanage. Tyson after becoming undisputed champion was not hungry anymore. He went through the motions in his profession. But emotionally he had too many distractions, for example his flailing marriage to Robyn Givens and the feud with his mother in law Ruth Roper. Marriage is good when it is working out, in all marriages there are problems, but Mike lacked the maturity to deal with it, and Givens and Roper exploited Tyson' lack of maturity, they used Mike falling in lust, not love. Then he left Kevin Rooney, who was very good for Mike and took on Leeches who just used Tyson. It is a shame, for he could have had a rather lengthy title reign. It had been rumored that before Mike's title fights that his corner would not give him the psych meds prescribed for him. I do not know if that was true, but it had been rumored. Then came the conviction, then prison. I did know that Tyson briefly embraced the Nation Of Islam during his incarceration. Tyson went through a lot in his life, he even lost a child, it is more than any of us can imagine, he is a human being and a man. Let's hope for the best for him.

 

I don't think Tyson's wins are diminished due to Ruddock'a rapid decline. Ruddock was a 6'3 27 year old hard hitting heavy ranked #2 in the world with a record of 25-1-1. That's an excellent win on paper in any era. No one was eager to step up and fight Ruddock either and Tyson did it twice.

His loss to Lennox looks bad on film but to be fair, Lennox was a monster and would go on to become a hall of famer and top 10 heavyweight. Ruddock may have been overconfident since he had beaten Lewis in the amateurs. The Morrison loss is a little less forgivable but the fight could have gone either way and the ref did stop Ruddock on his feet and it looked like it could have gone a little longer. His other losses shouldn't even be factored as he was way past his prime.

 

I think this post best answers the question

 

Age wise, yes. Fighting wise, no. His last fight in his peak condition was against Michael Spinks in June 1988. Out of the ring it was his sioree against Mitch "Blood" Green in Dapper Dan's in August 1988.

 

He fought guys in his career who could have taken him to the tough places, but he stopped them early. He was so great offensively. I would have liked to have seen Mike vs. Evander in 1990. It might have been totally different because Mike would be the bigger guy then, where in 1996 he was not. Holyfield had fought bigger guys like Bowe and Foreman after that and had gotten stronger and learned how to deal with those bigger guys and win, so Tyson was not as big a guy in comparison to that and he was not as defensive as before so Holyfield roughed him up, and was roughing him up in the rematch and Mike wanted a way out. Douglas was the right style. Douglas was not a step up from most of the guys Tyson had fought in his title defenses before that, just stylistically he was big and fast and could punch and everything put together was not good with Tyson. Yet Mike almost stopped him.. I don't like to talk about flukes, but Douglas was as close to a fluke as you can get even if he had the style to beat Mike.

Yes, Tyson's prime was quick. To fight against bigger guys and avoid the big punches took pinpoint accuracy which if anything comes up like becoming lazy in training just a little and being out of shape just a little, and not working as hard, that small amount he would be slower would make a huge difference. Getting hit with more punches and then being tentative to step inside and work the body and then go to the head. Then he was standing outside more just looking for big shots while getting hit walking in. That little amount changes everything.

I think the Tyson who beat Pinklon Thomas stops the Douglas he fought in Tokyo in 2 or 3 rounds.

The thing about Mike was he was a shorter heavyweight and his defense was so exact that when he did start to get hit in a fight he would keep getting hit and it was just a matter of time that the other guy would sometimes stop him. Mike didn't adjust well. He fought one way and that was that. Evander had a few ways to fight.

 

I think it was the competition. No longer fighting guys on the other side of the mountain. Lots of pedigreed up and coming fighters--and Tyson really did not face many of them anyway. The one's he did face, only the badly flawed Ruddock was the guy he licked.

 

I have watched this a LOT recently (Ive come across some really nice versions of it) and I have to agree with what you got here, and I think a lot of the "stock" story on Douglas' side of this fights' story is probably got the most truths in it. Main being, for whatever purposes, he fought a great *expletive* fight. The universe or whatever one wants to call it lined up everything and gave him the keys to the perfect fight, then he misread something and got caught for about 14 secs some wanna cry about, got his *expletive* back together, fought one of the most entertaining rounds I ever saw, and then put the beast on his ass and then told Larry all about it, and even that quote was perfect too

 

Your physical prime and your fighting prime aren’t always at the same time.

Mike became a lesser fighter even at 23, when he lost his focus and his dedication to the sport.

That’s the truth.

James Douglas was a good fighter who underachieved due to a lack of discipline. But he wasn’t a step up in competition.

Mike went to Tokyo overweight and unmotivated, where he half heartedly trained.

The video of Greg Page dropping him in sparring is still available on YouTube.

People can say what they want about the Douglas fight, but the warning signs came even before when he fought Bruno in 1989. He got hit with shots that he didn’t get hit with before, and he didn’t look anywhere near as sharp.

Mike’s unique style took an awful lot of of stamina and dedication to perfect.

Once that went, he was a different fighter.

He was exhausted in the Douglas fight, just hoping that his power would eventually save the day.

Regarding Evander, Evander was a great fighter. He was a step up in competition. But the truth is, the post prison version of Mike didn’t resemble the mid 80’s versions who Rooney had.

Even though he was only 29 in 1995, the versions who fought Spinks and Holmes etc, were much sharper and fitter.

 

I don’t agree with this.

He didn’t have longevity, but he was a great HW when he was motivated and focused.

If we say that the exact same versions of Mike that reigned from 1985-1990, fought from 1990-1995, then he could absolutely have won a belt.

Why not?

You’re saying that the 1988 versions who crushed Holmes and Spinks, couldn’t have had success in 1993?

If he’d have came round 5 years earlier, you’d have been looking at 1980-1985.

Holmes would have been prime.

I have Mike beating a prime version of Holmes.

 

I don’t know why not.

 

Great post.

I agree entirely with everything you’ve written.

 

James Douglas wasn’t a step up in competition.

 

I would say that Holyfield was a step up in competition, but Douglas was not if we are honest about it.

If Tyson beats Douglas then he is a very forgettable contender.

 

Competition means blue chip prospects coming up in the ranks. Pedigreed fighters. Money behind them. There weren't many heavies from that 1980 to 84 era. Minimal, really and it can take up to 4 to 6 years to develop. The real class came out of 1988. then another clump from 92 and 96.