Was Muhammad Ali fortunate that he got to work with Angelo Dundee or was it the other way around?

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by mark ant, Jun 26, 2019.

  1. mrkoolkevin

    mrkoolkevin Not here for the fairy tales Full Member

    Jan 30, 2014
    How is the type of basic reverse psychology that people use on a recalcitrant toddler “chess"?

    And who hasn't mastered checkers?

    I always wondered about Dundee's story because it seemed self-serving and self-congratulatory.
    Last edited: Jun 27, 2019
  2. JackSilver

    JackSilver Well-Known Member Full Member

    Jun 24, 2017
    Someone remind what the hell checkers is?
  3. choklab

    choklab cocoon of horror Full Member

    Dec 31, 2009
    Angelo was beneficial to every fighter no matter how phenomenal they were on their own as fighters.

    It’s not that he could make great fighters out of nothing. He couldn’t. Dundee only worked with fighters who already had pedigree.

    All great fighters still need the big fight experience of a man like that in their corner. Not just to work their corner. But To fight their corner. To negotiate, to think on their feet, to delegate, to argue the point, to buy time, to curry favour, to intimidate the officials etc etc etc.

    Just as a second, even if he wasn’t the guy who trained the man, Dundee could still benefit any fighter on the night. He was so professional, well prepared and experienced.

    It’s not that he knew anymore than other guys. It’s that he had done it more times and was willing to do things in a lot of different ways working with a lot of different guys.

    You will probably find more sophisticated strategists, better cutmen, better conditioners, better over all trainers but you won’t find many that could do all of those things together quite so well. Nor can you find many that always make the right calls at the right moment.
    steve21 and roughdiamond like this.
  4. Ken Ashcroft

    Ken Ashcroft Well-Known Member Full Member

    Dec 23, 2008
    It’s interesting noting that almost 20 years or so later, the last fighter that D’Amato would train before he died, would go on to make history and becoming the youngest heavyweight champion in history by beating a fighter that was being trained by Dundee.
    steve21 likes this.
  5. steve21

    steve21 Member Full Member

    Jan 19, 2015
    Didn't even think of that - nice!
  6. ETM

    ETM I thought I did enough to win. Full Member

    Mar 19, 2012
    Dundee saved Ali's ass a few times in the corner. He could think on his feet. Like cutting the glove against Henry Cooper when Ali was hurt badly. When he was blinded by Liston and trying to quit Dundee pushed him out there and told him to run! Ofcourse loosening the ropes in Zaire.
    Dundee also was very media friendly and that helped Ali all through his career. Angelo would spin excuses, lies and many are taken as fact to this day. He had influence.

    Obviously Angelo benifited from being with Ali.
    I think if I had the fight of my life in front of me I would want Angelo in my corner.
    choklab likes this.
  7. Bill1234

    Bill1234 Boxing Junkie Full Member

    Jan 28, 2007
    In terms of actual training Angelo was better than average but he wasn't on the level of Futch or Steward. As mentioned previously, it was his corner work that really made him great. He had a knack for getting his fighters to do what they needed to do to win, even if it wasn't him saying "circle to the left and you're safe to throw the right down the middle when you get outside of his shoulder" or "you can draw his right by feinting your left hook and then can catch him with your own right."

    He was more of a general concept teacher and guided his fighters to fight in a way that worked best for them. Above all, he was talented at getting the most out of his fighters. Without Angelo in his corner, I don't know that Ali would've won his fights with Liston or the Thrilla in Manilla. His urging of Leonard gave Ray the extra pep in his step he needed to go after and stop Hearns. Ultimately a trainer's job is to guide his fighter to victory, and that's exactly what Angelo's biggest talent was. He was one of the best at doing just that.
    steve21 likes this.