Was Muhammad Ali really that undertrained in Manila?

Not so much undertrained as over the hill...they both were...

 

That Ali was in terrific shape for Manila is self evident. The theory about calculating the extra weight may be plausible. [However, he didn't exploit his 14 pound weight pull like that when at 226 for Mac Foster, or his 20 pound advantage at 226 when following up Manila with Coopman. He didn't manhandle Bob Foster either, just punched Bob out while simultaneously demoralizing the LHW Champion with BF's seeming complete loss of power above 175.] He may well have had visions of socking Frazier outta there with the same kind of right hand he sent Joe almost crashing onto his face with near the conclusion of round two early the previous year.

Was he as well trained for Manila as he was for Norton II, Frazier II and Foreman? No, I don't believe he was, or that he felt it was necessary, as Joe hadn't really produced anything like the FOTC in well over four years [an eternity for a heavyweight with that swarming style]. Frazier had gone just 3-2 in his last five bouts, competing just twice a year, while Muhammad was on a seven fight streak averaging four annual matches. [1974, with just Frazier II and Kinshasa was extremely unusual for Ali in that respect. He had three bouts in 1971 AFTER the FOTC, and two bouts in 1973 AFTER Norton fractured his jaw. He preferred to be active, but prudently wasn't about to risk his shot at Foreman after Frazier II.]

Had Muhammad known what Joe had in store for him in Manila, I think he would have trained as assiduously as he had for Norton II, Frazier II and Foreman. To me, Smoke was better in defeat for the Philippines than he was in victory for Daniels, Stander, Bugner, JQ II and Ellis II put together.

View Frazier-Ellis I, then Frazier-Ellis II from beginning to end again. Were Futch and Frazier purposely selling Dundee and Ali a bill of goods for Manila? Because if they were, it may have been the greatest setup in heavyweight history. After reviewing Manila with Cosell, Muhammad was adamant that Joe should absolutely NOT retire, that he remained a great heavyweight with tremendous future prospects. [By the standard of his performance, Frazier indeed was following that classic, and made it clear in the post fight press conference he had no intention of retiring, but wanted a fourth match with his nemesis. Unfortunately for him, Foreman had returned to action. Without George in the picture, I think Joe may actually have gotten back to Ali for number IV.]

No amount of conditioning could have reversed Joe's deteriorating eyesight, progressing arthritis and other physical degradations, and he weighed in for Manila over 15 pounds above his self described ideal peak weight of 199 [which he actually did record for some early professional bouts]. However, he prepared for Manila with a career longest eight week training camp. It was not his conditioning which failed him, but the fact his good eye had swollen to the point he was having difficulty seeing Ali's right. Frazier, in my estimation, was better trained and prepared for Manila than Muhammad was.

Joe may well have been thinking of his own indifferent training camp in Kingston while preparing for Manila, recognizing that Ali was experiencing similar distractions and overconfidence, with the hope of catching his prey as unawares as Foreman had caught him in lifting the title.

 

That sums it up nicely.

That Frazier sure had some kind of competitive spirit, didn't he? What a will to win. Everyone thought he was washed up and certainly no longer capable of that kind of tough fight.

And that heat that night. I would love to see champs since deal with 104 degree temperature and that tough of a fight. 15 rounds. I cannot think of many guys looking good after 8 or 11 rounds against either opponent in that scenario.

Incredible. And 2 guys who just refused to lose.

 

Frazier taking on Foreman again without a tune up fight shows just what a warrrior he was. Joe didnt have an ounce of ***** in him.

 

Coopman and Mathis were not real threats to Ali. They were stay busy fights. Ali was soft and lacluster in those fights. Ali was in superior condition in Manila.

Even a diminished Frazier posed a serious threat compared to either of those fighters. Ali knew that whatever Joe had left he would bring it all that night. I believe Ali thought after KOing Foreman that he was stronger and could back Frazier up do something comparable to what George did. It was evident in the way he punched.

That was the meanest I ever saw Ali punch.

 

deal

 

Muhammad was certainly in better condition than he was in the Wepner or Lyle fights. Even though his weight was about the same. But,no,not in quite as good shape as he was for the Foreman,Norton II,Frazier II or even Quarry II bouts.

 

Ali was in excellent shape. After the fight Ali himself stated "I had a great camp for this fight. If I was not in such excellent shape I would have definitely lost".

Frazier may have weighed 199 pounds earlier in his career but 199 was not his best weight in 1975. He was as well trained as any man in 1971 and he weighed in at 205 for their first bout.

Frazier was asked several years later about why he lost this bout. First thing he said was....."it was hot". Many underestimate the amount of energy it takes fighting a style like Frazier fought in the ring with a fighter like Ali. It was 90 degrees in 100 percent humidity that night. The pace of the fight took it's toll more so on Joe than Ali. The last couple rounds Joe could not see well and of course this was the end of the road for him.