Was Patterson the best fighter AFTER losing his title?

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by jowcol, May 16, 2012.


  1. Hookie

    Hookie Affeldt... Referee, Judge, and Timekeeper Full Member

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    Some good posts in here. I always felt that in some ways he improved after the Liston fights... but as pointed out he was a bit slower and had a little less snap on his punches.

    His two fight with Quarry were close. D10 and LMD12. He dropped Quarry once, he was down 3 times. Some feel he deserved to win them both.

    His WBA HW Title fight loss to Jimmy Ellis was close as well, a win would have made Patterson the 1st 3x HW Champ and on a path to fight Joe Frazier.

    He looked good beating the likes of Henry Cooper, Terry Daniels, and Oscar Bonavena among others. Had a few good moments vs. Ali (their 2nd fight) in his last pro fight priro to being stopped in 7 due to cuts and swelling around the eyes.

    In comparison, he won about 2-3 rounds out of the 11 rounds prior to the 12th round stoppage vs. Ali in 1966. In 1972 he won about 3 rounds out of the 6 rounds prior to the 7th round stoppage vs. Ali.

    I always wondered how he would have done vs. Frazier between 1967-1972.
     
  2. Hookie

    Hookie Affeldt... Referee, Judge, and Timekeeper Full Member

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    As for fighters doing well after losing the HW Title (at least for the first time)... you can't go wrong with Evander Holyfield.

    He was 28-0 (22) overall, 10-0 (7) in World Title Fights at CW and HW, and 4-0 (1) vs. Hall of Famers going into the first fight with Bowe. Bowe won the HW Title but after this point in Holyfield's career (after age 30) he did very well. He-

    He beat Bowe 1 out of 2 more times (had Bowe down and almost out in the loss), beat Moorer 1 out of 2 (the loss was close and he had Moorer down), beat Mercer, beat Tyson x2, had one somewhat competitive fight with Lewis and one close fight with Lewis, went 1-1-1 vs. Ruiz, beat Rahman, lost a pretty close fight to Byrd, beat Oquendo, and was robbed vs. Valuev and age 137!
     
  3. mr. magoo

    mr. magoo VIP Member Full Member

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    Good observation. Evander Holyfield indeed faired well after losing his first title, and well in old age. I do however wish that he had pulled the plug long before facing Valuev, Donald, Byrd, and Toney however. In fact, retiring after the first Ruiz meeting would have been a preferable time for me. Financial troubles is what keeps him getting back in time and time again.
     
  4. Hookie

    Hookie Affeldt... Referee, Judge, and Timekeeper Full Member

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    I agree, when he couldn't get a clear win over Ruiz he should have retired.
     
  5. luke

    luke Well-Known Member Full Member

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    how did you score the Chuvalo fight ?
     
  6. luke

    luke Well-Known Member Full Member

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    Holyfield is fighting more for money imo, same as Tyson, i would of rated Mike if he went after Chris Byrd, Tua, Ibeabuchi, Lewis instead of Holyfield back in 96/97.
     
  7. MagnaNasakki

    MagnaNasakki Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    On the Liston fight and beyond...

    Patterson was a young fighter. He had peaked, yes, but he was far from done; Many heavyweight champions win titles later(Floyd was the youngest ever at that point) and are thus dethroned when powers are beginning to wane. Floyd was dethroned in the thick of his prime, its pretty reasonable that he had a good career left, given his talent, athleticism, and skill.

    The Liston could have gone better for Floyd, but he knew before the bell he wasn't going to win. This was the man his handlers desperately wanted to avoid, the uncrowned king. Do I think that Floyd could have spared himself the one round losses? Yes. But I think the occurrence of them indicates how well beaten Floyd was before he entered. He doesn't fight all the positively, and his movement halts under fire. In the rematch, he offers himself as a target when corralled, and is summarily dispatched.
     
  8. janitor

    janitor VIP Member Full Member

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    A good argument.

    Patterson was ranked in the top 10 for longer than any other heavyweight champion, and most of that was after he lost the title!

    Bob Fitzsimmons deserves a mention.

    Holyfield is a no brainer.
     
  9. jowcol

    jowcol Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Had Floyd gotten the nod against Jimmy in Sweden, what would he have done? IMO I don't think he would have hung against Joe and would have been stopped (stopped, mind you, not KO'd)
    The 50's Floyd, with Cus calling the shots, may have fought a mid-range contender first but the new Floyd may have went for a Quarry 3 right off the bat, hard to say.
    Good call on Max S. earlier but I don't think Max fought the level of competition that Patterson did after losing the title. Ezz was another good example but, unlike Patterson, after prime had moved up to a heavier weight class which obviously made it more difficult for him.
    Lastly, to the other earlier poster, my dad said the same things to me when I was a youngster, that Floyd was more than a fighter, he was a unique man who carried himself well both inside and outside of the ring. That had an amazing effect on me at that age.
    Good posts!
     
  10. apollack

    apollack Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Again I disagree. I'll quote then Cassius Clay, who before the fight said, "Anyone who has hit Patterson has knocked him down, and if Liston hits him, he's not going to get up."

    Bottom line is Clay, like myself, thought Liston hit way too hard for Patterson.
     
  11. choklab

    choklab cocoon of horror Full Member

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    Liston was wrong for patterson on a few levels so Floyd was perhaps unlikly to ever win against sonny but above that patteson just did not perform at all against Liston. Floyds worst two efforts. Ever. It was like Floyd did not want to be there both times. In my veiw Patterson was as Poor against Liston as sonny himself was in the rematch with Clay.

    Patterson on fire would have been a better fight against Liston. The effort he put into winning fights against johansson, chuvalo, Bonavena and cooper was unrecognisable to the shell that Liston toyed with.
     
  12. apollack

    apollack Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Again, disagree. None of those guys was on the level of Liston. Patterson WANTED to fight Liston. He easily could have avoided him. His manager wanted him to avoid him. Many did not want him to fight a guy with a criminal record. He also easily could have avoided a rematch. He did not. I say was game but overmatched. This psyched stuff is myth. Liston was just a monster of power, like Foreman. Foreman would have done the same thing to Patterson. Just like Foreman did to Frazier and Norton. Patterson was not big enough, strong enough, had a somewhat vulnerable chin, and did not have the right style.
     
  13. choklab

    choklab cocoon of horror Full Member

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    Another way of looking at is that Foreman got Frazier at just the right time. Not many realised how far back Frazier had gone since TFOTC because he was up against weaker guys. Norton had been KO'd before and would be again as soon the next huge puncher met him. Monsters of power usualy get hit back if the other guy is on his game and/or wants to fight.

    Liston was wrong for Patterson but Floyd was like a human sacrifice in their fights, just as Liston was against clay in their rematch. Do you think Liston could have done better against clay in Maine? I sure as hell do. Both Patterson and LIston did not want to be in a ring each time both were beat in the 1st round. Floyd took those fights to challenge himself but it just backfired. Sometimes the challenge itself will help you raise your game and sometimes the pressure is too much. Liston took the clay rematch but by the time the fight started he was not keen or ready to fight.
     
  14. JWSoats

    JWSoats Active Member Full Member

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    I believe Floyd Patterson became more confident in his true abilities as he fought top contenders after his championship years. The charges that he had been protected and dodged the top contenders I am sure were very distasteful and disturbing to him, which drove him to defend against Liston, against the wishes of his management. As mentioned earlier, he lost the title to Liston during his prime years and still had a lot of good mileage left. While he did not regain the title, he did successfully vindicate himself as a worthy champion and all-time great.
     
  15. apollack

    apollack Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Even a Frazier at his best gets KO'd by George. Foreman was too big, too powerful, too much reach, and Frazier comes right at you, right into those massive blows and uppercuts and jabs. No way around it. Phenomenal power and physical prowess against a guy who comes forward. Say good night. Takes a defensive specialist or spoiler to beat a Foreman, and also a Liston. Ali was over 200 pounds, tall, good reach, fast as all hell, had great footwork and head movement, a defense first/don't get hit mentality, and had enough strength to clinch well when he needed to. Totally different matchup for Liston.