Was Ray Robinson REALLY The Best Middleweight Ever?

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by salsanchezfan, Oct 6, 2016.


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  1. salsanchezfan

    salsanchezfan Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    I come here not to spit on the grave of the consensus choice #1 pound-for-pound fighter ever. I happen to believe he was, or is at least in the conversation for such a mythical title.

    I do, however, believe that he is routinely overrated in terms of being the greatest middleweight champion of all time. It's not his fault that he was a bit long in the tooth by the time Basilio, Fullmer, Pender et. al took his measure late in his career, but that is also decidedly beside the point. The simple fact is that he WAS losing these fights, however old he may have been and so they must be viewed as part of the whole just as his victories were. The alternative viewpoint I've read here form time to time is that he of course WAS the greatest 160-pound champ, due to the flashes of brilliance he showed in such stellar efforts as Lamotta VI or Turpin II. An interesting viewpoint I suppose, but one that frankly leaves an incomplete and therefore inaccurate picture.

    How do you see it? Do you take the larger-picture view as I do, or do you see it as more of a snapshot in time "at this given point no one could ever have beaten him" sort of thing? How do you rate him at 160, trying hard to forget the body of the rest of his work?
     
    salsanchezfan, Oct 6, 2016
    salsanchezfan, Oct 6, 2016
    #1
  2. mcvey

    mcvey VIP Member Full Member

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    I used to think so ,now I put him in the top 4.When Monzon was quizzed on Robinson he said," he won the title 5 times but he had to lose it each time to do so,I never lost my title".Pretty good point imo. SRR is my No 1 at 147, but not160lbs
     
    mcvey, Oct 6, 2016
    mcvey, Oct 6, 2016
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  3. Bokaj

    Bokaj Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Certainly not the greatest since, as you say, he was starting to come on in years when he stepped up in full (he beat a good amount of MWs when still a WW as well, though) and therefore never really had a long run of dominance. I think the case always can be made that SRR at his MW best was the best MW ever. He looks stellar in the MW footage we have of him.

    But if he was a contemporary fighter his wins against LaMotta and Graziano would be reduced to nothing by many seeing they were both past prime. Especially Jake, who was killing himself making weight at that time. And the others he beat at his "MW prime" (before his first retirement) weren't much to write home about, and then there's of course the Turpin loss.

    I don't think that is enough to base a claim on him being the best MW ever, and certainly not the greatest.
     
    Bokaj, Oct 6, 2016
    Bokaj, Oct 6, 2016
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  4. salsanchezfan

    salsanchezfan Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    I remember the article you reference on Monzon well, from International Boxing magazine, if I recall.........
     
    salsanchezfan, Oct 6, 2016
    salsanchezfan, Oct 6, 2016
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  5. mcvey

    mcvey VIP Member Full Member

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    That's the one, good recall!
     
    mcvey, Oct 6, 2016
    mcvey, Oct 6, 2016
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  6. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    The best fighter i've ever seen on film full stop was Robinson in LaMotta VI. So, yes.
     
    McGrain, Oct 6, 2016
    McGrain, Oct 6, 2016
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  7. salsanchezfan

    salsanchezfan Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Out of curiosity McGrain, do you rate other fighters in other divisions the same way, more in the "judge them by their best moment" vein? Or does that one effort by Robinson stand out enough to make it a sort of one-off thing?
     
    salsanchezfan, Oct 6, 2016
    salsanchezfan, Oct 6, 2016
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  8. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    No, that's just my answer to this specific question. I don't think he was the greatest middleweight ever, just the best middleweight i ever saw in the ring.
     
    McGrain, Oct 6, 2016
    McGrain, Oct 6, 2016
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  9. salsanchezfan

    salsanchezfan Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    A difficult line to draw at times.
     
    salsanchezfan, Oct 6, 2016
    salsanchezfan, Oct 6, 2016
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  10. Eddie Ezzard

    Eddie Ezzard Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Oooh, saucy. The question was do you think he was the greatest middleweight ever and you said 'Best I ever saw in the ring was SRL v LaMotta VI. So yes."

    Sounds like a 'yes' to me. You've changed your tune there. Advantage sanchez
     
    Eddie Ezzard, Oct 6, 2016
    Eddie Ezzard, Oct 6, 2016
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  11. salsanchezfan

    salsanchezfan Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    It's, ehm.................it's not really an argument. :lol:
     
    salsanchezfan, Oct 6, 2016
    salsanchezfan, Oct 6, 2016
    #11
  12. Unforgiven

    Unforgiven VIP Member banned Full Member

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    He's in the running.
    As well as his title fights, he was knocking out middleweight contenders while he was still campaigning primarily as a welter.
    And he beat some good middleweights in non-title fights throughout his career.

    Losing a close fight to Randolph Turpin is no big shame, and the other losses came when he was clear past prime.
    I'm a big fan of Marvin Hagler but he didn't look too great against Antuofermo the first time. And Monzon had at least one tough fight with an old Emile Griffith.

    I thought Robinson's KO of Fullmer was remarkable for a man of almost 36 years old, 17 years into a career, and already 150 professional fights under his belt (not counting his numerous early unofficial bootleg fights).

    I'm not saying he's #1 but there's a very strong case for anyone to say it, and not just on a "at his best night moment" basis.
     
    Unforgiven, Oct 6, 2016
    Unforgiven, Oct 6, 2016
    #12
  13. janitor

    janitor VIP Member Full Member

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    I think that he was a little bit undersized for the middleweight division, and I think that he was beatable at that weight.

    One of the greatest pound for pound fighters for sure, but probably not literally the best 160 pounder of all time.
     
    janitor, Oct 6, 2016
    janitor, Oct 6, 2016
    #13
  14. Eddie Ezzard

    Eddie Ezzard Boxing Addict Full Member

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    It so is. To quote Stan Laurel 'There's gonna be a fight"
     
    Eddie Ezzard, Oct 6, 2016
    Eddie Ezzard, Oct 6, 2016
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  15. salsanchezfan

    salsanchezfan Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    I see.............
     
    salsanchezfan, Oct 6, 2016
    salsanchezfan, Oct 6, 2016
    #15
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