Was Roy Jones a great defensive fighter?

It's doubtful there's ever been a fighter that was harder to hit in his prime. So, this alone should qualify him as a great defensive fighter.

Was he greater or as great defensive fighter as guys that was hard to hit even when way past their physical primes (Moore, Toney, Hopkins etc)? That one is harder to answer.

 

Yeah different style style really. Whitaker did it right in his opponents face which is faaarrr more difficult because your in your opponents punching range.

 

So I assume in a similar way you wouldnt call Foreman a top HW hitter because his technique wasnt quite right

 

There have been plenty of fighters throughout history who use their natural physical assets to avoid getting it and because of their energy or length they are successful. Hell, go to a gym and watch amateurs imitate Ali and do this. They look good to the untrained eye. Until they get locked in a corner. Then they look simple and hittable. Sometimes these young fighters have a panic attack because they haven't been properly trained to fight in close or maneuver. They are incomplete.

Jones and Ali were hard to hit when they were young because they had uncommon speed and uncommon reflexes. The Klitschkos are not so easy to hit either. Their length and reach make it so -are they "great defensive fighters"?

A great defensive fighter suggests defensive genius, it suggests speed, uncommon reflexes, and great skill that comes with a wealth of experience. The difference between Jones and Ali and true defensive masters like Whitaker or Pep is that the Whitaker and Pep maintained a ridiculous level of evasiveness -in the pocket and past prime. We all saw the holes in Jones and Ali when they slowed down. Jones now gets hurt badly. Ali, a lion heart, absorbed the shots and clinched and bluffed. Had they been true defensive masters, they would still be difficult to catch. Like Duran. He'll be at Canastota, NY in June at the IBHOF. Go there and throw a shot. I bet you'll miss.

The suggestion that fighters who make you miss because they usually linger or step out of range and avoid infighting or leap in and out are at the same level as those fighters more prone to stay in the pocket and make you miss anyway ...is off.

What's harder? You want to measure how technically advanced a fighter is? Watch him inside. It's harder there.

 

Andre Ward is something special and a future ATG.

 

:?

 

I got your point, and I agree. Depends on how you want to look at it. The long explanation above would be the purist perspective.

 

You have a point. But Duran was definitely hittable as he grew older, too. Great as his perfomance against Barkley was, he had no business standing up to some of the shots he was taking. And Benitez and Hearns didn't have much trouble finding a Duran with faded reflexes.

And this will probably not surprise anyone, but I think the comparison between Ali and Jones is made a bit too flippantly. Yes, both were unorthodox fighters who relied heavily on close to superhuman athletecism in their prime, but Ali adapted much better and this was not only down to harder chin.

Against Foreman, for example, Ali managed to nullify almost everything Foreman threw. Now and then Foreman got through and Ali had to ride it out, but the same is true of a prime Young who fought a somewhat faded version of Big George. As I have pointed out earlier, I also think Ali fought better from a technical standpoint in Manilla than in FOTC. He had faded physically, but improved technically and tactically.

 

Yeah just depends on how you define defense I guess. I agree with you it should be evaluated both ways outside inside, just overall not getting hit, of course in close defense is a little more impressive in my book because your doing it in range.
Speaking of Torres, Mike Tyson had some incredible defense at his best, and probably the hardest defense to master because he was coming forward and slipping shots.

 

Of course an aging fighter, irregardless of how technically skilled is going to be hit more. Conditioning also factors in. Barkley was missing multiple shots in a row throughout the fight though, and that should not be overlooked.

...flippantly?

* The MAJOR reason an aging Ali was able to survive those punchers despite the holes in his technique was because of his harder chin.

* Jones had at least as an impressive array of athletic powers. Let's not forget the kind of power that made Ruiz's eyes to loopty-loops.

I'd say that he did not improve "technically" -you usually do not when you are in your mid-30's. What happened was he was able to adapt to a now-familiar style in Frazier. Ali could be counted on to do this which is why I wouldn't bet on anyone beating him twice in those head-to-heads. But that's not technical advancement. It's strategy.

 

Torres' statement about Ali's allegedly getting hit less in his prime than Pep fails to consider several variables. These include Pep's fighting in the pocket where you have to consider fists, elbows, and the head. Again, it's easier to avoid punches when you are on or outside the perimeter. You can see them easier. He also doesn't consider Pep's frequency of fighting which reduces Ali's to novice-levels; and he doesn't remember the fact that Pep was fighting men who were far faster than anything Ali ever faced --in terms of speed, Ali had it easy compared to featherweights.

I believe that Ali was great defensively, very effective defensively, and a supreme athlete, but I see a difference between acknowledging that and calling Ali a defensive master, or a defensive genius, or a highly skilled defensive technician.

 

True. But I think you can make the same allowances for Ali against Shavers. Shavers tagged Ali brutally hard a number of times and only Ali's chin and will kept him standing then, but it wasn't like he was hitting him at will. Far from it. He missed a lot as well.

It should be said, of course, that Ali wasn't as technically skilled as Duran. Just to avoid misunderstandings.

Here I disagree. The main reason Ali survived against Foreman is that he made him miss a horribly lot. More than even Young did.

But of course Foreman got through now and then. He managed to tag just about everyone he met at least once ot twice, and they all needed good chins to survive those occassions. Same with Shavers.

A prime Young, who's considered a very technically adept defensive fighter for a HW, was caught more cleanly by a faded Foreman than Ali ever was, but was durable enough to survive. Even Holyfield had to tough it out a couple of times against an ancient Foreman.

Ali was of course hit more frequently when he got older, but he didn't receive a really sustained beating until he met Holmes.

It was a couple of things he did better from a technical standpoint. He was more discplined in keeping his right hand up and he leaned in against Frazier when against the ropes instead of leaning back and giving Frazier punching room. He also showed good in-fighting on several occassions, which he just about never had done before.

In FOTC he fought like he still had the legs he had in the 60's and paid dearly for it. After that defeat he became more disciplined technically in several regards and wasn't as vulnerable to the left hook anymore.