Was Roy Jones a great defensive fighter?

Not in the true sense. His speed and reflexes are what enabled him to avoid punches, not skills like blocking and parrying. When he began slowing down 6 or 7 years ago he began to get hit with punches that he would have avoided in his prime.

 

Ali was a technician in disguise? I've heard Senya say the same thing about Jones. The problem is that it isn't true. Ali and to a lesser extent Jones were savants. They made a career out of ignoring the text book and developed their own style that was less reliant on fundamentals and more reliant on natural athleticism. Dundee himself will tell you that he wasn't insisting that Ali learn how to throw uppercuts properly or fight inside. He let Ali develop naturally. They weren't fine-tuning his fundamentals in training just to fight in the Ali style when it mattered. Fundamentals are honed over years and years of drills, application in sparring, and under the lights.

As per the video: Ali threw not one body punch. Not one! He was relying on coming over Bugner's jab with a right and now and then threw a left hook or flurried with uppercuts that should have been countered by Bugner. His jab was always special but Ali relied on the jab, the right, and a hook that was usually slapping the opponent's head into range of his right. He didn't have much more in his offensive arsenal.

Defense? He's pulling back and turning away from shots and holding.

I repeat... Ali is not a technician -offensively or defensively.

Harold Johnson was. In this clip, he is almost mirroring what Ali is doing -but he is doing it with better balance, a tighter formation, and could have taught Ali an awful lot about leverage.

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Az5DSG4uFgI[/ame]

 

When we talk avout the great defensive boxers his name dose not come up but maby it should. In his prime he rarely got touched and isn't that why we conseder Pep, Whitaker, Benitez, B. Leonard and Loche geat defensive boxers?

 

I've never claimed Ali is a technician in a text book sense. As you say, he developed his own technique to a large degree, but it is still technique. That's really where you and I differ. You see anything not text book as pure athleticism, which I don't. Take any NBA player, or what have you, with fantastic athletic ability and they still won't pull out the moves of a prime Jones or Ali. Not without a lot of practice.

Also, I think Ali had a bigger repertoire than he usually let on. You can see that in sparring clips from the mid 60's for example, but a notable example in an actual fight is when he fights Frazier on the inside in Manilla.

But to be clear: Ali had technical flaws. I'm not claiming anything different. I just think you tend to view it a bit black and white.

And I also think this about him taking bad beatings in every fight when he got older is quite overplayed. He never took such beatings that Bowe took from Golota for example. I can't even remember him getting hit as much in the first 4-5 rds as a prime Holyfield was by frigging Bert Cooper. Nor, of course, a prime Tyson by Douglas.

It's true he almost completely disdained the body. I think the hooks he throws here are good, though. As is of course the jab and the right.

What? Here I clearly disagree. Except for one instance in the very beginning of the round he is staying in the pocket, moving his head, slipping punches and countering. He keeps his hands low and ignores the body, but otherwise...

His punches are crisp and sharp (even the left hook) and his footwork is golden. He's continually cutting Bugner off. He keeps his chin down, leans forward to expose himself as little as possible and slips and counters. Both on the outside with the right and inside with the left hook.


Ps. Nice clip by the way. From a technical standpoint I'd like to see a bit more head and upper body movement from Johnson, but he's got just about flawless text book technique. That right was an absolute beauty.

 

Jones at his finest is a fantastic defensive fighter. His reflexes were unbelievable.

 

RJJ was definitely among the greatest defensive masters of all time. Without question. Late career setbacks shouldn't count against him. Every fighter inevitably declines.

 

In his prime he had really great defence. When he lost his reflexes, his defence became so so. That puts him below someone who had great defence in their prime, and still good defence when past prime. So I'd place him in the 2nd tier, behind the best defensive fighters like Pep, Locche, Whitaker etc.

 

Not black & white... I look at it as a matter of degrees. Ali did some things very well. He did slip shots and roll very well. He moved with grace and balance. His jab was masterful. His right cross was often perfect.

I think that too many fans tend to hallucinate though. Tyson fans see him as a ferocious tough guy. He was not. Duran fans see him as worthy of excusing for No Mas. He was not. Jones fans see him as the top LHW ever and able to whip Moore and Charles on the same night. Ali was not a technician -unless you want to redefine and essentially water-down what that means in order to force it.

To call a fighter a "technician" or a "master mechanic" should be reserved for those who display certain a standard. Is that black and white? Boxing has evolved sensibly and there are good reasons for why fundamentals are so important. Ali scrapped most of them because he relied on athleticism far more than fundamentals. To call him an athletic marvel and not a master mechanic makes sense and may even be a higher complement.

I disagree. Ali took heavy punishment in Manila and afterwards. It is absolutely a major reason for current state. He absorbed the shots better than most and had a better chin that any of the three you mention but that doesn't mean his brain wasn't spinning on its stem.

I got one word for you. Shavers.

Harold Johnson has earned the title of technician. Ali was not. Ali was a physical marvel, a ring general, and a genius... but not a technician.

Fair?

 

Agree (of course).

I've never called Ali a master technician. Don't really know what to call him. Perhaps an unorthodox technician, which also would include Roy Jones, Jersey Joe Walcott, and probably Burley and Moore to a degree. Much of what they did was self-taught and thereby especially designed for their special abilities. It's nothing a trainer should ever teach as a standard, but (as proven) it's deadly efficient for those with the right fit.

Manilla and the Shavers fight certainly has a lot to do with his state today. But still, prior to Holmes he never even got close to taking such a one-sided beating as Bowe took from Golota, or as Tyson took from Douglas and Holyfield.

See above. We're pretty close, I suppose. The main difference is probably that I would like to add "unorthodox technician" to your two categories "technician" and "savant".

 

Just to jump in here and keep you guys flowing i think you meant "technician".

 

Yeah. I'll edit.Thanks!:good

 

Cheers mate.

 

Tell that to the young whipper snappers on here that think hes vastly overated because of those late career setbacks. :good

 

I think you'll find it's the older brigade

 

I rarely agree with lefthook31, but he raises some good points in this thread.