Was Roy Jones overated ??

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by Dance84, Feb 9, 2020.


  1. PernellSweetPea

    PernellSweetPea Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    This is a debate which goes under potential and drive to be the best. I think Jones head to head could have gone with SRR or anyone. He was that quick. He was not technically sound as we all said, but he was so fast a counterpunch from him would land on anyone . That is how fast he was. Incredible speed and reflexes and that is what makes Roy stand out
     
  2. PH1882

    PH1882 Member Full Member

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    No. Super talented and great to watch.

    Fought for longer than he should have and maybe this diminished his stature.
     
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  3. Clinton

    Clinton Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Fine post as always, John. Btw, I'm your "puppet" lol.
     
  4. Seamus

    Seamus Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Hopkins
    Toney
    Johnson
    McCallum
    Hill
    Tarver
    Castro
    Ruiz (at way above his natural weight)

    I would qualify that as a GREAT resume by the standards of boxing since 1970. Guys don't bank 300 fights anymore. Because they are smarter and more empowered these days, they actually fight less for more, which is a good thing, not a bad thing. Thus, their resumes need to be scrutinized differently.
     
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  5. JohnThomas1

    JohnThomas1 Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Cheers Clint. Don't take any notice of fraudsters that resort to "criminal impersonation" in order to trick others mate. It's actually a crime of "moral turpitude" and is a class 6 felony.
     
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  6. Tramell

    Tramell The Ideological Slayer: I Slay Ideology! Full Member

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    Over rated: no.
    Took on best opposition during his era: almost.
     
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  7. Tramell

    Tramell The Ideological Slayer: I Slay Ideology! Full Member

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    It's been awhile, but to the best of my memory here is one of the moments that questions his decisions (not his skills)
    This content is protected

    According to Rocchigiani's lawyer, Richard H. Dolan, the ruling effectively strips Jones of his championship title from 1997 to date: "Jones, having walked away in 1997, has yet to fight the bouts required by WBC rules to regain his former title."

    The court's decision is in response to charges leveled against Jones and the WBC in a case tried by Rocchigiani's New York law firm, Schlam, Stone & Dolan. Earlier rulings by Judge Owen detail a tale of gamesplaying by Jones and outright deceit by WBC officials as Jones maneuvered to reclaim his title without having to fight Rocchigiani after Jones' initial 1997 bid to become a heavyweight contender fizzled. Eager to accommodate Jones because of the lucrative sums he generated, the WBC decreed three months after the March 21, 1998 fight that its own widespread promotional, contractual, and official references to that fight as a championship bout -and to Rocchigiani as the champion -- had been 'typographical errors.'



    To me it isn't about a "well Roy would've won anyway"

    Besides the point. Point is -there were several opportunities to fight in MW, SMH & LHW that he didn't consider.
    If today were 1993...with internet like we got how would we respond to a phenom in Roy Jones winning the MW title then:
    Thulani Malinga after winning the WBC belt? In the previous year this dude had just lost to Ubank & Benn.

    Then he fights Fermin Chirino. Consider a boxer wins a title, then decides to take on a guy who was 12-7-2, what for?:nusenuse:
    He went in 3-5-1 with 2 recent losses -and that earned him a fight with Roy? How so? After losing a decision to Roy he went on to lose 11 st8 (including the 2 fights before Roy) 5 were KO's but not by Roy. He won a fight then ended his career with 8 consecutive losses.

    3rd fight since winning the title & he takes on Danny Garcia. Per boxrec this dude got a fight with Roy by losing 4 in a row. How would we treat a MW champ today whose 3rd fight after winning the title was against a 25-12 foe on a 4 fight losing streak?

    1994-we finally get an IBF defense against Thomas Tate. Personally, I think Tate was a pretty good fighter, he had just beaten Tyron Trice a hot/cold fighter, but legit. But he also had just lost the previous year to Julian Jackson and most crucial was that he wasn't ranked very high in the IBF, let alone Ring.

    End of the year would trigger a showdown with the then #1 P4P James Toney to which he won easily. However those of us who watched it reel-time also know James decided to binge eat-forced himself to losing at least 30lbs was it? Not RJJ's fault, but what a shame after 3 lame fights...he takes on a guy who he knows has to lose a lot. a LOT of weight to drop to 168lbs.
    Reason for doubting his win over JT was his next choice of Antoine Byrd. Was he even ranked?:nusenuse:

    So he is 26-4. His previous bout got him a shot at RJJ's title? Edurado Ayala? he was 9-4 & the dude b4 him was 2-3. Just wondering if Canelo or 3G had just taken on a 26-4 whose recent wins came over a 9 wins 4 loss foe & a 2 win 3 loss foe...how would we respond?

    3 defenses in one year is pretty good, but when his 2nd title D is against Pazienza- a well known name, but to give a shot against a guy who just beat Roberto Duran in 1994 & again in 1995? Paz went the distance with a dude who had been boxing for 2 1/2 decades...and that was billed as PPV The Devil vs Mr. Jones.

    1995 Gman moved UP to SMW called out Jones. While Gman lay on his back-becoming paralyzed...Benn called out Roy post fight.
    Gman, Benn, Nunn, Rochiagianii, Collins all at that weight class then-so who does he take on?
    Tony Thorton. By this time I started slipping as a fan.This cat had just lost his title shot at the IBF to Toney in 1993.

    I just looked up his comp that gave him a shot @ RJJ Lenzie Morgan. Anyone know who he is? Cause I don't. He got the shot at 12-12 & ended at 14-33. Oh & Darryn Zenner. So beating those 2 got Thorton a shot @ RJJ.

    Next up is Merqui Sosa a fighter whose records doesn't match his skills a lot better than 26-4 suggests. Was it his draw & win over Charles Williams that got him a shot? Maybe, but the fact that he lost every major fight causes concern that Roy aint picking winners he pickin whoever. Thorton, Tony, Nunn, Tate they all beat him, no surprise RJJ would.

    Next up is Eric Lucas...He takes on Lucas who just beat Brannon. To whom Roy would fight after Lucas, why? So after losing to Brannon, & Fabrice Tiozzo he got a win over some Karl Willis who was on a 2-11-2 streak. Now he is ready for Roy Jones Jr.

    Not sure where to rank Bryan Brannon. 16-0 decent skills but had a NABF title...that tells me he knew he wouldn't get near the other 3 belts, so this is who Roy fights to hold 2 belts at once:a NABF champ. Almost 4 years with one title.

    McCallum decent fight. He is a 16 year vet who beat J Harding for the LHW strap, then lost it to Fabrice Tiozzo so he fights RJJ a good fight, not great.

    Top pick to take on Montell Griffin. Rematch was quick n nasty. Gr8 revenge...not sure he should've got DQ'd, but it was late.

    Darious Mickelsomething...had just beat Virgil Hill, so why not take on the winner? Nope RJJ took on Hill-6 years after Hearns out boxed him. Was it for a title? Then again I asked myself: Why did Roy fight him then? I can't give a reasonable response.

    1998 (5) years after winning a major title...now he wants to fight for a 2nd belt to hold simultaneously. Lou was a good fighter, but find it interesting that Roy took him on...a year after Virgil Hill beat Honey Boy, damn Roy!! Lou had just won the vacant belt over Eddy something...
    I didn't know much about Otis Grant who had a decent record & retired with a decent one, but then again all 3 losses were stoppages, so how great was this win?:shakehead:

    And this is just 1/2 his career as a champ...so how does one rate a phenom with speed, reflexes, power, stamina...that tests it against those mentioned above?:thinking:
     
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2020
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  8. Saad54

    Saad54 Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Yes, Roy did cherry pick similar to Mayweather. But they were rarified talents who most likely beat the guys they are accused of avoiding.

    Your first fail is to not mention who he beat to win a MW title in 1993 - Bernard Hopkins. A very, very good win. It was for a vacant title, but Jones would go on to beat the guy who had been the best MW in the world until moving up to 168 - James Toney.

    If true, Toney was an idiot to blow up in weight so soon after beating Charles Williams and agreeing to fight Jones with little time to take the weight off. It sounds like Duran after beating Leonard in their first fight.

    But, Toney was near the top of the pound for pound ratings so this was, on paper, the toughest match Jones could have taken at the time.

    Regardless of Toney's conditioning issues, Jones would have outsped Toney no matter what condition James was in.

    As for you harping on his NON-TITLE fights after he beat Hopkins in 1993 - those were strictly stay busy fights. A certain JC Chavez did that all the time. Nobody is scrutinizing his non-title fight encounters decades after the fact.

    And the Maligna non-title KO win was actually very impressive as he had never been stopped and would go on to beat Benn a few years later. He was a career super middleweight/Light Heavyweight. So, that was a tough guy to test the waters at 168 lbs.

    Thomas Tate had lost to Jackson before facing Jones - but you fail to mention it was a gruelling 12 round war that greatly tested a Jackson who had been KOing his competition early. That fight greatly enchanced Thomas Tate's reputation and he was a very good opponent for Roy to face in a 160 lb. title defense.

    I agree Jones's choice of compettion after he beat Toney was disappointing.

    But, I have a hard time faulting what he did up through the Toney win.
     
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2020
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  9. JohnThomas1

    JohnThomas1 Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Jones was off key and presented with a bit of a puzzle once in what, 14 years and 49 fights? Better jump on that one quick. To put it in perspective he was beating Griffin anyway and was very likely aout to stop him before losing his marbles.

    Almost every great fighter in history has had their struggles with non elites. It's ok tho as long as they had reasonably orthodox techniques that are praised on youtube videos right Mark? As it was Griffin is a damn decent fighter.

    Jones wiped him out in the blink of an eye in the return and you even tried to criticize Jones heavily for that as well remember ;)
     
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  10. Tramell

    Tramell The Ideological Slayer: I Slay Ideology! Full Member

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    It's not easy for me to write it, as I was an avid watcher of his fights. It is an injustice to fans that have to defend him with "well he would've won anyways" to which I stated. You are correct a rare talent.

    A fail? LOL! Ok. I usually omit Hop because of who he wasn't at the time: X. Good win? Sure, eventually proved to be great only because of how much Hopkins progressed. Again Roy isn't taking a belt from anyone-it's vacant.


    Close to ring introductions Lampley mentions Toney's unusual lack of discipline for a P4Per had to take off way too much weight.
    This content is protected

    I quote from article: Toney, who claimed he was sluggish after shedding about 35 pounds in training to make weight in his fourth defense of his title, obviously ran out of gas in the late rounds.
    Again as stated in my 1st post-Not RJJ's fault. It is JT, however looking at who he went on to fight next left a bad taste with fans who lived in an era that hadn't quite yet turned into the generation of "if the money is right" fighters. "

    Correct if I remember James was #1. It didn't look like it the way RJJ had his way with him!

    In theory I agree, technically speaking here is where the difference is: When Meldrick Taylor rose to the top-no arguing, debate over money he stepped up JCC took the fight. John Duplessis ranked to fight him..JCC took it. Frankie Randall was on a run from 1987-1994...JCC took him on. Pernell then rose to the top guess what? JCC took him on. Now he's on the other side of prime late 30s?...and a young DLH comes in...he takes him on! See that is a champ...stay busy -or entertain his beloved Mexico..but when he fought in the states? Nothing but the best!

    IMO that means stay busy fights never occurred with top ranked champions like JCC giving us no opportunity today to ask: WHy didnt JCC fight this guy or that guy....the way we do RJJ. Because JCC fought all that was there.

    Again -how could they be stay busy fights when Benn called him out? Gman did and moved UP to SMW to chase him. How do I give credit to a guy who got the LHW title back in court as opposed to fighting Rochiaginii? Every time I made the argument the response is the same: Well he would've won"

    But he didn't take On Michael Nunn & there was a window. He could've taken on Darious micklesomthing...and told us to our face: After Seoul...he aint travelling overseas to fight.
    Yet when his primes left him he spent his last years fighting overseas.
    Yes he looked impressive beating a fighter that fans at that time didnt ask to see.

    No I didn't fail to mention I saw no need. Tate isn't an ATG. But you did fail to mention that I said regardless this was a good fighter,:) I just didn't delve into details as you so articulately stated.
    I have a hard time because I loved RJJ the boxer. Best talent I've ever witnessed. But if there ever was a case for a fighter who could've fought others....I choose RJJ.
    Again, talk to me and tell me your take on the WBC being sued because he simply felt he could get the belt back...without a fight.
    The vacant belt was between Rochiaginni & Nunn. Nunn lost, so the org tells him..Roy wants it back, no need to fight for it- Just give it back.
    See JCC didn't operate that way. Ali, Hagler, Hop, heck even OScar fought all the young guns in their prime...to which is why he lost as much as he did...He stepped up to take on Swe-Pea, undefated Tito, Quartey, Mosley.
    RJJ was in this time frame..and as a result we have to say
    1. His talent was umatched,
    2. End result he would've won anyway had he fought them
    ...but he didn't fight the names I mentioned, instead taking on guys coming off of loses, some consecutive, others not even ranked.
    Again, RJJ in today's era with internet, youtube, would U be able to defend him if he did this in 2020?:(
     
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2020
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  11. ETM

    ETM I thought I did enough to win. Full Member

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    Looking back now there is one fight I'm glad Roy had..that was his first bout with Tarver. That was a rough fight and Roy couldnt win that one with his gifts alone. He had to dig deep. Tarver was finding him and put some damage on him but Jones gutted it out. Near his prime he never really had to go through that.
    Tarver was a good solid light heavyweight who had a good punch. I dont think Jones chin was the glass that it ended up being.
     
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  12. steve1990

    steve1990 Member Full Member

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    That fight took what was left of Jones.
     
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  13. mark ant

    mark ant Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Jones went for broke in the rematch and missed with hooks wildly a couple of time, M.Tyson`s finishes were far superior at heavy because he was harder to counter while going for the KO like Duran.
     
  14. KuRuPT

    KuRuPT Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Agree 100%. Too much is made of the Griffin fight. People act like he lost a decision or was losing wide when the fight was stopped. To me, it had the feeling of, Jones is starting to figure him out, and will KO him soon enough. The way people talk about the fight, you'd think Griffin was pitching a shutout before the stoppage.
     
  15. KuRuPT

    KuRuPT Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Had to get a Tyson plug in somehow eh Mark?
     


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