Was Usyk Unbeatable At Cruiserweight ?

"Ali was known for closing strong."

Closing strong in the last round may get you the last round but it doesn't alter the fact that Ali's fights against Young, Norton 3 and Shavers in the 5 fights prior to Spinks were all highly controversial decisions. Ali was often getting by on the grace of the judges at that point. When he fought Spinks he was a badly diminished fighter who would soon be stopped by Holmes in a fight where Compubox had him outlanded more than 8:1. Ali had no business being in the ring at that point, he would have been far better off retiring after Frazier 3 or even Foreman.

Spinks showed he was no great shakes in subsequent fights where an even more diminished Ali beat him, Coetzee KO'd him in 1, Holmes stopped him in 3 and where he went the distance in competitive fights with LHW-cruiser journeymen immediately prior to getting stopped in 6 by De Leon.

"Nobody picked Leon's win over Ali"

Legend bias is a powerful thing. Oddsmakers were even giving 1980 Parkinson's Ali a very good chance against Holmes: https://www.si.com/boxing/2015/09/23/muhammad-ali-larry-holmes-title-bout

If I'm diminishing De Leon's wins and career with my interpretation then how are you not doing the same for Usyk? Your assessment of his career was "a heavyweight who moved down to cruiser to have easier matchups against smaller, inferior fighters". That's a more negative assessment than anything I said about De Leon.

 

"None of them were the World Cruiserweight Champion"

Fair point. But few regard Camel, Gordon, Ratliff, Benton or Bell as being more accomplished cruisers than Nelson, Huck or Gomez, despite holding the lineal cruiser title at various points. In any case, the thread was originally about H2H ability, rather than which cruiser climbed the most weight classes, lost and won back the title the most times or had the longest collective run (which are actually negative indicators of a cruiser's H2H ability).

"guys who didn't win the World Title at heavyweight and don't have any World Heavyweight Title defenses don't get mentioned in discussions on who is the best heavyweight ever."

By the same logic that you applied to the cruiserweight division, can a fighter be an "ATG" heavyweight if he never wins the lineal title and doesn't have any lineal heavyweight defences?

 

Same way Wilder wasn't ever the heavyweight champion?

 

I'm just going to summarize what I've said repeatedly and be on my way, since we're just talking in circles now.

What I said about Usyk may be MORE negative ... but it is true.

Oleksandr Usyk won the Olympic Heavyweight Gold medal ... same medal that Joe Frazier, George Foreman, Ray Mercer, Deontay Wilder, Tommy Morrison, David Tua, Sultan Ibragimov, Ruslan Chagaev, Andrew Golota, and on and on all tried to get.

Usyk was a guy who fought in the paid WSB ranks and fought super heavyweights like Joe Joyce and Junior Fa and handled them.

CLEARLY, WITHOUT QUESTION, like all those heavyweights I just mentioned, Usyk was a guy who could've competed at heavyweight his entire career. Clearly.

But, instead of staying at heavyweight, after two years of floating back and forth between heavyweight and cruiserweight ... Usyk decided to compete full time at cruiserweight.

He did that because it was easier to win a belt there. That's not news to anyone. It's ALWAYS been easier to win a belt there.

If that sounds negative, don't be so sensitive. Because it's true. (See the fight on Sunday for an example.)

And if the division weight limit moves back down to 190, like it's rumored to be headed, I'll hold Usyk's "run" at cruiserweight with even "less" regard because ...

Unlike Holyfield, who came up from light heavyweight and won the cruiserweight world title (from DeLeon) at 190 ... Usyk NEVER would've been able to compete at the cruiserweight limit if the limit had remained 190.

He was a heavyweight, who saw an opportunity to pick up a belt at 200 pounds (instead of 190), and took it. I don't hold that against him, but I'm sure as hell NOT going to PRAISE him for that.

On the other hand, even though you continue to brush it off and pretend it wasn't the case, Carlos DeLeon turned pro at Lightweight and moved up SIX divisions in six years and won the World Cruiserweight Title ... and over the next 10 years won the WBC cruiserweight title four times ... and DeLeon held the RING cruiserweight title more times than anyone and made more RING/Lineal cruiserweight title defenses than anyone.

To me, that's a far bigger accomplishment than Usyk moving down and picking up four belts at cruiserweight.

And YOU may think it's awesome when someone moves down to win a belt in an easier division, but I don't. I never have. I even gave the example of Oscar De La Hoya winning a belt at 130. I don't consider that a huge accomplishment.

I will always have more respect for fighters who accept bigger challenges (which Oscar and Usyk ended up doing, but I'm not going to praise when they didn't).

So, call me biased. But that's just the way it is.

With that, and the Badou Jack thread, I've had more than my fill talking about cruiserweights for a while.

So, I'm out. Nice talking with you.

 

Classic being classic.

 

Correct. Deontay Wilder has never been in the discussion for the best heavyweight ever because he was never the WORLD Heavyweight Champion. Just the WBC champion.

You probably have to win the World title to be rated above Louis and Ali. No one has ever said Wilder should be #1 above Joe Louis and Ali.

Congratulations.

But if YOU want to make a case for Wilder being THE GREATEST heavyweight EVER, go right ahead. Wrong thread, though. Probably should start a new one.

Goodnight.

 

I don't want to make that case LOL

 

"He did that (fight at cruiserweight) because it was easier to win a belt there."

There are many potential reasons why Usyk fought at cruiser, neither of us are mind readers. You're trying to find the most negative interpretation possible but considering what Usyk's done since at HW, how difficult it was to win a belt wasn't likely a chief consideration.

You give amateur heavyweight Wilder a lot of credit for fighting at pro heavyweight his whole career (though he fought several ex-cruisers, ex-sub-cruisers and guys under the cruiser limit) but for 6 years and 32 fights his toughest opponents were guys like Sconiers, K. Price and Firtha. And the only fighter Wilder beat who I'd bet on not going negative against Usyk's 7 cruiser title opponents is Ortiz.

De Leon being a lightweight at 17, losing four times and winning the cruiser title again and again and having a sustained run at or around the top of the relatively new 190 lbs cruiser division doesn't have anything to do with him being the best H2H or a hypothetical threat to Usyk, which is what the thread was originally about. You could argue he's the most historically significant cruiser or had the most impressive run by x and y criteria, no problem with that.

But Guillermo Jones could at least claim to be a mature man fighting way down the divisions before moving up to cruiser. He was 26 fighting for a title at 154. He wasn't a cruiser at 20 years old like De Leon was.

Holyfield never fought below 176, so calling him a "light heavyweight" who moved up is dodgy, especially as you consider Usyk's 200.5 lbs fights as "heavyweight" contests and don't consider Usyk to be a "middleweight" because he was fighting there at 19 in the amateurs (like Holyfield was).

 

That didn't really answer my question. I was wondering whether you thought that Wilder was an "ATG" heavyweight without ever winning the lineal title. I don't need to wonder though because you've already confirmed that in the past. That puts Wilder above many lineal heavyweight champions, right? You're not an "ATG" just for winning the lineal title (L. Spinks, Douglas, Rahman, Briggs etc.), I don't imagine.

 

Jesus Christ. Usyk fought at super heavyweight in the WSB when he was 26 YEARS OLD. They were paid boxing matches. Not amateur fights. Five rounders. Pro rules. Joe Joyce, Junior Fa, Majidov and Nistor aren't cruiserweights. Neither was Usyk. And those fights initially went on fighters' pro records, but fighters said they wouldn't participate in the WSB if the practice continued. Regardless, Usyk weighed 206 (and his opponent 208) as early as Usyk's 'official' second pro fight.

I don't know why you want to belabor this. But I'm done. Usyk was a heavyweight who moved down. He wasn't fighting in a lighter division and worked his way UP to cruiserweight.

 

You never asked me anything about Wilder in that question. The other poster did. And I responded to him. Who the hell knows. When Wilder's career is over, ask again. But lots of fighters are ATGs who don't win world titles. The quote of MINE you copied and posted referred to fighters being named the BEST at the weight.

And nobody is getting ranked the #1 heavyweight all time or the #1 cruiserweight of all time without being a WORLD heavyweight champ or a WORLD cruiserweight champ. That's all I said.

 

Dubblechin embarrassed again.

 

How so? Every time someone starts losing an argument around here ... they yell WILDER or DUSTIN NICHOLS ... or you didn't pick that upset two years ago, you suck ... and change the subject.

Clown.

 

Go get banned again for loving Wilder lol

 

I have no idea what that even means. But thanks for proving my point.

Have a nice day.