Was Willard the worst ?

Equating the cloud that hung over Primo's whole career with Baer and Braddock is not reasonable; attributing it to Primo's being Italian is nonsense. Thousands of Italian-American immigrants welcomed Primo to these shores. (incidentally, Gallico's father was Italian!)

Paul Gallico was a popular writer who wrote an essay called "Pity the Poor Giant." I don't need that here and haven't quoted him. He called Louis a "jungle killer" and a "savage" and questioned his bravery with only his pigmentation as evidence against it. Gallico was a dope. But he followed Carnera's career from the beginning and was instrumental in exposing what was really going on.

Some of the guys who actually had to fight Carnera and train fighters to fight him took him very seriously. Many others made it look like they were.

Most everyone had to deal with them at some level. They were in too deep and had too much money to spread around, but their level of involvement for a top boxer varied considerably. Factors such as the fighter's willingness, reliability, public support, level of debt owed for past opportunities provided by the guys in the shadows, venue of the fight, how much heat was from the law, sportswriters and straight politicians, how much heat would be generated by the fix, etc., etc.

You're insistence on dumbing this down isn't going to rescue Primo's reputation.

There isn't much on Louis incidentally. Relatively speaking, there isn't much on LaMotta, when you compare him to Primo. Primo is primo.

Walter Friedman was his manager on record, but answered to Bill Duffy and Madden -both racketeers. Madden was a killer, as stated already. Friedman admitted after Primo's retirement that alot of Carnera's fights were "what you might call mischievous".

Leon See, his French manager, got ousted by Duffy and took to writing about the fixes... they're out there somewhere. Find those and you'll change your mind if my (herculean) efforts don't.

Or... you can consider what Primo himself said about the book "The Harder They Fall", which was a virtual play by play of how they exploited Carnera:

"I read it...it's all true. He [Schulberg] should have talked to me, I'd have told him much more."

How's that?

Again, fixes don't happen every time out. It is about opportunity and risk. See above. Schaff's death was celebrated by the unsavory entourage around Primo as a lucky break that was needed. Do you think they didn't know that he wasn't so well after Baer?

Nat Fleischer wasn't watching grainy old film like you and I. He said that it was an "invisible punch" that dropped Sharkey. Neither Sharkey nor Fat John Buckley, his manager, had sterling reps either.

Sharkey was a 5-4 favorite going in. The gamblers cleaned up. Do you know what Primo's purse was for the Sharkey fight? $10,000. Do you know what he actually pocketted afterwards? $200. He filed for bankruptsy after that fight.

What does that tell you?

.... Have it your way.

Albert DiMeglio finished his career 1-4. Guess who's the only man he beat. I'll give you a hint: That man(-mountain)'s record was 86-10 and outweighed DiMeglio by 56 pounds.

 

Re Carnera, Leon See claimed these fights were fixed;
Sebilo through to Nicolaieff-hold on I've changed my -i'll just list the"sincere" fights-its much easier.
The first Diener fight, Bouquillon, the second Diener, Chevalier(strangly) Godfrey, Cook, Bertaazzollo, both Maloney contests, Redmond, Uzcuden, Meen, Hansen, Roberti, Carlos, Sharkey, Levinsky and Campolo. His list stops there. I offer this for unformation only, See may have had an axe to grind. IMO the wins over Uzcuden, Loughran and Sharkey were legit but it's just an opinion. I think there is no doubt that a fair few of his fights were fixed.

 

Lets look at what these fights really mean.

Lasky, Levinsky and Schaff were all ranked in the top five while Max Baer was champion. If you beat guys like that you are clearly elite level in your era.

Sharkey was a brilliant but inconsistent champion.

Uzcdun and Loughran were both decent challengers. Mediocre fighters simply dont outpoint a guy like Loughran. They might stop him but they dont outpoint him.

 

That was NO "invisible" punch that Carnea landed on Sharkey, that was a ripping uppercut. Sharkey also didnt have the best of chins by the way.

 

Janitor, you have to work on your quoting skills here! Box off my paragraphs by putting brackets around quote=Stonehands89 and then end it by putting brackets around /quote

Baer and Braddock were not owned men. They may have had to "do business" now and then, but they were lucky enough not to be in Primo's position.

What? The times that a non-American has even won the HW title was negligible until this century. In the 20th century there were 5 out of roughly 26 universally recognized champs that were not American" Lewis -and before him you have to go back 40 years to Johansson, then there's Carnera (who was undeniably mobbed up), Schmeling (who was German and had PR shots with Der Fuhr, which explains the media's distaste for him) and Burns.

I hope you're not French.

Yes, because I am fair. But I'd argue that Gallico was closer to the truth about Carnera than you are.

There are racketeers and then there are Racketeers.

You don't know much about American racketeering. Joe Louis' managers were black racketeers out of Detroit. They had local clout -not the kind of clout that Madden had. Not even close. Roxborough was running the numbers in Detroit's black neighborhoods. Julian Black was a speakeasy owner who also ran numbers out of Chicago. They didn't have real influence over any white power structure.

So Gallico is unreliable, and See was a bitter man. I see.
How about Friedman? How about Primo? What's his taint?

"Or... you can consider what Primo himself said about the book "The Harder They Fall", which was a virtual play by play of how they exploited Carnera:

"I read it...it's all true. He [Schulberg] should have talked to me, I'd have told him much more."

How's that?

Wrong. Most ring historians agree that it was Baer who threw a right that did the damage to Schaff. Schaff was down for several minutes before getting revived. He frequently complained of headaches after that fight. We know more about head injury today.... Schaff would have had an MRI today and that would be that.

I have seen the fight and I have already stated my opinion that Sharkey was trying and the punch seemed legit to me. See the earlier post on this.

Incidentally, I don't think that the Loughren fight was fixed either. Carnera's people didn't see Tommy as a threat and Tommy was never known as a banger. Tommy was tired, so they let it alone. He lost his next 3 fights after that and was all done soon after. They let it alone for another reason too: Tommy was square and honest and wouldn't be pressured. They look at probability of returns and risk of exposure and figured the cost would outweigh the benefit of pushing Tommy Loughren.

Are you beginning to see how it works?

He DIDN'T know, his naivete and childlike acceptance of chains were part of the reason why he got so exploited. See actually strained to make him believe in the awesome power of his fists, so when Sharkey beat on him and knocked him down, it was an eye-opening experience for Primo, as well as a complete trauma, I'd expect.

"Legitimate" and "Primo's career" don't fit. I can't explain how it works any better than I have already. You are looking for smoking guns and straight lines and if you can't find them, you deny what everything else points towards. It's the limitations of the scientific approach.

Look at it like a detective, not like a paleontologist.

It's worse than that. That was when his pimps cut the last cord. They had long since stopped caring about whether or not he was winning, they just stuck him in there and took his purse. Carnera got wrecked in 3 rounds by Haynes and what do they do? They get him a rematch a few months later. This time, Primo was hurt badly -his leg was temporarily paralyzed and he ended up in the hospital.

Primo: "I lay in the hospital bed for five months. My whole left side was paralyzed. I was in much pain. During all this time, not one of them came to see me. Nobody came to see me. I had no friend in all the world."

 

Ha... well, it's looking better already.

Liston sure was. But that doesn't mean the modus operandi had to be the same. Liston was a more capable and far more skilled fighter. He didn't need much help. But the Ali fight in Lewiston was fixed and I hope you don't dispute that.

I'd love to, but his career is hopelessly tainted. Look at this thread --how much time has been spent arguing over the veracity of particular fights that Carnera had?

The best I can do is offer that it is probably more likely that, for instance, the Sharkey (outweighed by 60 odd pounds) and Loughren (outweighed by 95 pounds) fights were on the level.

Primo was not a bum. He was huge and strong, but although he picked up some basic skills here and there over 100 fights, he was no technician and never reached a place where I would consider him fundamentally sound.

You almost got it.

It's like a pyramid. At the top are Carnera and Sonny Liston -they were owned men. Second level is Baer and Braddock and guys like Graziano (who feined injury to avoid throwing a fight) and LaMotta. They were tapped to do business on the way up. Most guys got a touch of it or not like Louis and Robinson -as favors.

Friedman. Schulberg. Carnera himself. They verified the picture that See and Gallico presented.

I saw that. Perhaps! This stuff is all murky.

Again, his size and grizzly strength would make him a force in damn near any era.

Carnera was also fluent in 4 languages. He was bright and gentle. Too gentle. He was as naive as a child and easily bullied. I know doctors who can't match their clothes and Mensa members who are social ******s. There are many homeless geniuses.

There is no proving either way. The way it worked was by nature shadowy and downright byzantine -and you can't prove a negative.

However, I do believe that my arguments here tip the scales against taking Carnera's rise to the top as better than fraudulant.

 

You offer fearful Seldon, head-case Golota, out-of-shape guys looking for a paycheck, and outclassed opponents -and equate it with a man who's whole career was run by a NY syndicate?

Boxing has always had one foot in the shade, but Primo's career was as shady and expoloitative as it gets. All of those examples you named were all rolled up in Primo's career. He wasn't the "prototype". There was no career worse in modern boxing.

 

Greg Page was Daddy-Dominated.

 

Willard d. Leon Spinks, KO

 

I see how you grasp neither history nor Carnera's reputation. I see how you either (a) didn't read the previous posts or (b) lack the intellectual fortitude to remain objective and grasp the information offered to you.

You are the first person on this thread and the first person I ever heard who compared Carnera to Tyson in terms of intimidation.

Your train is veering off the tracks.

Those happened then and they happen now -no one's denying that. Boxing will never be as pure and idyllic as we would like -it's built on brutality, domination, and humiliation.

But was Riddick Bowe owned by the Gambinos or the Bonnanos? How many top contenders or Heavyweight champions do you know of who had "managers" who threatened opponents and paid off cornermen to work against their own guy by smearing his eyes with resin between rounds? Or who took 95% of the purse and left their fighter to declare bankruptcy after he won the title?

If you are going to compare Ray Mercer trying to bribe Jesse Ferguson during their fight with the shenanigans of the guys in the suits surrounding Primo for years, you are an ignoramus.

"Unsophisticated guys" you say... with names like "Bugsy" and "Fingers".... Read and learn:

"Bugsy" Siegel was a key figure who build Las Vegas with the backing of the Chicago outfit. Gaetano "Three Fingers" Lucchese was a founder of the Lucchese Family out of NYC who made inroads into the Manhattan garment industry as well as trucking and the trade unions.

These guys were anything but unsophisticated.

It's a shame that you don't know what you're looking at.

This thinly veiled accusation against me for "sugar-coating" boxing is ridiculous on it's face.

Obviously, you are (understandably) cynical about the state of modern boxing, and scapegoated what you thought you were reading in my post. You should read up on history -there are a number of good books about the rise of the underground government, La Cosa Nostra in the 30s, and what the fight game had to deal with then. Boxing during that era which was in some ways better than now, and in some ways worse. Open your mind.

Boxing was considered extremely shady as a sport for the first three decades particularly of the twentieth century. Fight crowds then were almost exclusively wiseguys, bookies, pickpockets, legbreakers, and all kinds of riff-raff. Women weren't even invited until Rickard saw an audience in them before the clash of the matinee idols in Tunney and Carpentier.