Weight drain - how valid an excuse is it?

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by Bokaj, Jun 17, 2012.


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  1. Bokaj

    Bokaj Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Perhaps the most common excuse/explanation on this board when a highly rated fighter is suprisingly well beaten is that he is weight drained. Personally, while there without a doubt are cases where this is a legit explanation, I'm a bit sceptic to it in general.

    To start with, most of these guys are seasoned pros that very rarely should do such miscalculations, and even more so in their highest profile fights.

    Secondly, the excuse of weight drainage is often used for fighters being dominated from the opening bell when the effects really should take a while to show themselves. For example, if we look at the perhaps most well-known case of weight drainage, SRR-LaMotta VI, LaMotta hangs in there well for the opening half and only really starts to show the effects of being drained towards the last third. Robinson has also admitted that he based his game-plan on LaMotta gassing late due to weight drain.

    Your thoughts on this?
     
    Bokaj, Jun 17, 2012
    Bokaj, Jun 17, 2012
    #1
  2. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    I disagree that disastrous weight-draining should wait until the late rounds to manifest itself. These guys are using the body as a tool at the very extremes and so even slight ruptures in preparation can cause issues. Not eating or drinking for 48 of the 72 hours prior to getting into the ring before loading the body with calories and fluids is going to take a more obvious toll.

    The type of cutting you are talking about with the LaMotta issue is old fashioned cutting, using excersise and steam to take off the last few pounds. That has the affect you describe. But denying straight forward sustenance to the body before overloading it is different.

    In the 90's, dramatic weight-cutting was in its infancy and things sometimes went wrong I guess. They are much, much better at it now. Unfortunately, this gain hasn't been passed onto the fighter in terms of increased room for superior performance, or the public, but rather to increased weight cutting. It is not uncommon for fifteen pounds to come onto a welterweight in twenty hours. That's not that uncommon now. These guys are less weight-drained than they would have been but I'm guessing they still deplete the cerebospinal fluid.

    Weight-drain is a legitimate "excuse" in that a fighter can't fight to their best when weight drained. Then again, most fighters fight weight drained. It's interesting that the two most exceptional fighters of the last fifteen years, Pac and Money, don't drain. They fight at a weight natural to them.

    Fighters who have to do extreme drain are never going to be as competitive as those who do a "normal" drain. Then again there are guys like Victor Ortiz that do it and seem to see no side-affects.
     
    McGrain, Jun 17, 2012
    McGrain, Jun 17, 2012
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  3. frankenfrank

    frankenfrank Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Jackie Kallen is responsible 4 James Toney's being so drained against Roy Jones . She sold him 4d money of a superfight instead of moving him up 2 175 a year or so previously .

    All of Leonard's biggest wins were against drained opponents :
    Benitez , Kalule , Hearns #1 , Duran #2 , Donny Lalonde and possibly Hagler in 1987 , he even had Hearns drained in d rematch . Seemingly he even caught Dave Green at d time he was having trouble making 147 b/c even he never made that weight anymore adter Leonard .

    Could it b coincidental that every title fight Leonard had was against some1 who never made d weight anymore ?

    Toney had seemingly impressive wins over weight drained Sosa , Nunn , Barkley and Charles Williams .

    Career management is also about fighting d big money / name opponents in d right time but does it prove any greatness / superiority over them ?
    of course not .
     
    frankenfrank, Jun 17, 2012
    frankenfrank, Jun 17, 2012
    #3
  4. Bokaj

    Bokaj Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Some good points, but Pac used to drain. I think he was almost the weight he is now when at 130. Not too sure about Floyd, but I think he must have done some cutting when at 130 as well.

    Still, it seems to me that it would be the rare exception that a fighter that is used to drain would get it so wrong before a big fight that it seriously affect his perfomance from the opening bell.
     
    Bokaj, Jun 17, 2012
    Bokaj, Jun 17, 2012
    #4
  5. Bokaj

    Bokaj Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Didn't LaMotta cut down radically on what he ate before fights, though? I remember Moore teeling how he only chewed pieces of steak before spitting them out.
     
    Bokaj, Jun 17, 2012
    Bokaj, Jun 17, 2012
    #5
  6. PowerPuncher

    PowerPuncher Loyal Member Full Member

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    Sometimes excuses, sometimes valid reasons for a drop in performance. However the weight drained fighter does have a size advantage over the none drained fighter that is often forgot

    Also most fighters are going to be a bit drained to make weight, it's to what extent they are

    The most he cut was for the Chavez fight, which I think was about 8lbs and he said he was drained and not fighting at 130 again. I might be wrong on the 8lbs but it will be on the fight tape if you want to look it up

    I don't think the Mayweather camp are particularly adept at cutting weight though, pumping up water intake the week before, to restrict it the 24hours before, jumping in the sauna and banging a few diuretics will cut 8lbs without too much sweat, pun intended
     
    PowerPuncher, Jun 17, 2012
    PowerPuncher, Jun 17, 2012
    #6
  7. burt bienstock

    burt bienstock Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    There are perfect examples of weight draining causing havoc in the later rounds such as LaMotta/Robinson#6 when LaMotta had to lose 10 pounds or so before the bout...
    The fight was very close as LaMotta expended whatever stamina he had in the tank
    and Robinson bided his time until the later rounds resulting in the tko in the 13th round.
    I recall the scuttlebut before the bout that LaMotta was having difficulty in getting down to 160 lbs. So weight draining had a terrible effect on LaMotta in bout #6 resulting in LaMotta being stopped when in their 5 prior bouts LaMotta was never even in trouble once...
    On the other hand Harry Greb in his bout with Mickey Walker,July 1925 was overweight by a few pounds just before the weigh-in... So Greb old and creaky with about 290 bouts
    ran around Central Park TWICE on a steamy afternoon, drinking just orange punch,
    and lo and behold hit the scales at 158 pounds...The drained past peak Greb's plan was to absorb what the young toy bulldog Mickey Walker could land on him, tiring Walker out and then open up on Walker...And the plan worked well as Greb took over the fight and
    gave Mickey Walker a 15 round drubbing...
    So losing weight ruined LaMotta probably because he supposedly had to shed about 10 pounds, while with Harry Greb losing weight just before the weigh-in, didn't affect the outcome...
     
    burt bienstock, Jun 17, 2012
    burt bienstock, Jun 17, 2012
    #7
  8. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    Of course. I'm saying NOW they don't drain.


    Why? Fighers are going through the same biological changes that you and I are, the same pound a year on the frame (on average) and as they reach their thirties they go through the same sudden inability to move weight in the same way, or some of them do.

    Also they are only human and have bad days and they can get higher between fights than they did last time etc. I agree it's not particularly professional when it happens, but it definitely happens.
     
    McGrain, Jun 17, 2012
    McGrain, Jun 17, 2012
    #8
  9. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    Of course. Almost no fighter eats normally as a fight approaches.
     
    McGrain, Jun 17, 2012
    McGrain, Jun 17, 2012
    #9
  10. Lester1583

    Lester1583 Can you hear this? Full Member

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    Mayweather is a perfect example of a fighter who always stays in the fighting weight.

    His discipline is very impressive.
     
    Lester1583, Jun 17, 2012
    Lester1583, Jun 17, 2012
    #10
  11. dmille

    dmille We knew, about Tszyu, before you. Full Member

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    If a fighter can't make weight, move up or shut up.
     
    dmille, Jun 17, 2012
    dmille, Jun 17, 2012
    #11
  12. frankenfrank

    frankenfrank Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Sometimes or more correctly most of times , it is not d fighter who makes such decisions , it's his management . They can at least convince him if not force him 2 remain @ a certain weight . "A man will kill himself 4 money" .
    But it is d fighter in d ring who suffers from it in d end and after d fight is over he sees that d suffering just begun .
     
    frankenfrank, Jun 17, 2012
    frankenfrank, Jun 17, 2012
    #12
  13. Legend X

    Legend X Boxing Addict banned Full Member

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    dmille said it best ^

    It's a valid excuse for novice amateurs.
    For top professionals, it's not an excuse worth listening to.
     
    Legend X, Jun 17, 2012
    Legend X, Jun 17, 2012
    #13
  14. Hands of Iron

    Hands of Iron #MSE Full Member

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    It's definitely become overused and blown out of proportion.

    There isn't a single, significant win in boxing history these days. You'd think.
     
    Hands of Iron, Jun 17, 2012
    Hands of Iron, Jun 17, 2012
    #14
  15. thistle1

    thistle1 Boxing Addict Full Member

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    today with months & months between fights, fights made months in advance and weeks & weeks to get down and train, No Excuse.

    But in the past fighters were at times called to order with very little time to break a sweat, never mind lose 10, 15 or 20 lbs, it meant life or death!
     
    thistle1, Jun 17, 2012
    thistle1, Jun 17, 2012
    #15
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