Welterweight champions of the mostly-filmed (WWII onwards) era, listed chronologically: let's sort!

I was being a little tongue in cheek with the Pacquiao match-up. It obviously wasn't the same Pac that fought Cotto, no, but there has been a backlash from reactionary Pac fans attempting to portray him retroactively as 'shot to bits' against Horn to withhold any credit and salve the undignified sting of their hero losing to a relative unknown. (since the original tact, screaming robbery, has largely fallen on deaf ears...many still believe Pac deserved the nod but time has time has vindicated Horn - and will continue to do so as more time goes on IMO - as having fought a close enough fight that you could argue it either way. The debate has mostly subsided, as I think most even among the scored-for-Pac camp realize this was indeed a close fight and not the hill they want to die on when there are hundreds of decisions more deserving of the appellation "robbery")

So ultimately our greatest assessment of Horn's worth (going along with convention of using a boxer's form against their best opponent as their baseline) is that he fought on about 50-50 terms with a Pac that was far removed from his welter best (let alone what I consider his actual prime, in the lighter weights) but was still world class...more or less the exact same version as every post-KO6 Pac (the one that fought Rios, Algieri, Bradley II & III, Mayweather and Vargas). Anyone claiming otherwise is attempting damage control to save face. Pac's decline in aggression, speed and reflexes over several years preceding even the Mayweather fight are well documented, and it wasn't as if the decline became markedly steeper after that point. He more or less has plateaued since 2014 with the decline becoming more gradual than can be tracked by the naked eye fight to fight as Pac has settled into his dual lifestyle as Congressman/public figure and waning (some would say complacent) sportsman.

So no, Horn doesn't hang with a Pac at the height of his 147lb abilities...but he also shouldn't be deprived of any credit for beating (or at least fighting on 50-50ish terms, give or take some people's subjective interpretations on their RBR scorecard distribution) a still-credible Pac.

 

it was this moron, actually.

https://www.boxingforum24.com/threa...he-weakest-welterweight-champion-ever.601749/

Trolls indirectly do some good once in a blue moon.

 

So, using that breakdown into tiers @McGrain did as our jumping-off point, here's an initial stab at sorting this enormous 90-piece jigsaw puzzle:

TIER I
Ray Leonard, Sugar Ray Robinson, Henry Armstrong, José Ángel Nápoles, Kid Gavilán, Emile Griffith (omitted Jack Britton from Mac's list; sorry, but no footage disqualifies him from inclusion on mine </3) - 6/90 accounted for

TIER II
Floyd Mayweather (really gutted almost this entire tier, practically decimated it; omitted Ted Kid Lewis, Barney Ross, Jimmy McLarnin, Mickey Walker, Joe Walcott, Tommy Ryan on the "not enough footage to make evaluative h2h comparisons" basis) - up to 7/90.

TIER III
Tommy Hearns, Luis Manuel Rodríguez, Carmen Basilio. - now 10/90

TIER IV
Fritzie Živić, Pernell Whitaker, Oscar De La Hoya, Felix Trinidad, Shane Mosley, Emmanuel Dapidran Pacquiao, Curtis Cokes. (omitted Charley Burley as he wasn't a world champ at the weight; and Jackie Fields because so little footage) - 17/90

TIER V
Donald Curry, Roberto Durán, Carlos Palomino, Wilfred Benítez, José Cuevas. (omitted Young Corbett III & Mysterious Billy Smith for dearth of footage) - 22/90

TIER VI
Marlon Starling. (another decimation; omitted Rube Ferns, Honey Melody, Lou Brouillard, Harry Lewis, and Mike Sullivan for dearth of footage; Young Peter Jackson on the grounds he was never a champ at the weight) - 23/90

TIER VII
James McGirt Sr., Tony DeMarco, Lloyd Honeygan, Benny Paret. (omitted Paddy Duffy, Joe Dundee & Matty Matthews for dearth of footage; Dave Shade, Billy Graham & Cocoa Kid as they were technically never world champs at the weight ...although Kid and Burley did both hold the World Colored Welterweight Championship, which may in the day have been even more prestigious - and that's a mouthful considering their reigns encompass the Ross/McLarnin era) - 27/90

Alright, there, nearly a third of the batch at least roughly categorized. The above is subject to quibbling and rearrangement (there was quite a bit of debate & revision in McGrain's original thread from which I quoted that, anyway).

Here are the leftovers, then, from whose number we can add to any of the above tiers, or get really granular and create new ones all the way down until scraping the bottom and finding a tidy (approximate, to start) home for every last man of the ninety:

(just inputting them chronologically for now)

1. Red Cochrane
2. Marty Servo
3. Johnny Bratton
4. Johnny Saxton
5. Virgil Akins
6. Don Jordan
   
7. Billy Backus
8. Ángel Espada
9. John H. Stracey
10. Milton McCrory
11. Mark Breland
12. Jorge Vaca
13. Simon Brown
14. Tomás Molinares
    
15. Genaro Léon
16. Manning Galloway
17. Aaron Davis
18. Maurice Blocker
19. Meldrick Taylor
20. Crisanto España
21. Gert Bo Jacobsen
22. Eammon Loughran
23. Isufu Quartey
    
24. José Luis López
25. Mihai Leu
26. Ahmed Kotiev
27. James Page
28. Daniel Santos
29. Andrew Lewis
30. Vernon Forrest
31. Antonio Margarito
    
32. Ricardo Mayorga
33. Michele Piccirillo
    
34. Cory Spinks
35. Jose Antonio Rivera
36. Zabdiel Judah
37. Luis Collazo
    
38. Carlos Manuel Baldomir
39. Ricky Hatton
40. Kermit Cintrón
    
41. Miguel Ángel Cotto
42. Paul Williams
43. Carlos Quintana
44. Andre Berto
45. Joshua Clottey
46. Yuri Nuzhnenko
47. Vyacheslav Senchenko
48. Isaac Hlatschwayo
    
49. Dejan Zaveck
50. Victor Ortiz
51. Paulie Malignaggi
52. Randall Bailey
53. Devon Alexander
54. Adrien Broner
55. Shawn Porter
56. Ezekiel Brook
57. Timothy Ray Bradley, Jr.
    
58. Marcos René Maidana
59. Keith Thurman
60. Danny Óscar García
61. Jessie Vargas
62. Errol Spence, Jr.
    
63. Jeffrey Horn, Jr.

Sure enough, total attendance, full headcount, that's our balance of 63 names.

TIER IT UP, BOYS! (I've done plenty at this point; taking a backseat and sipping on my coffee now to supervise while you all get your hands dirty )

 

Actually, sorry, forgot a couple...we're up to 93 welterweight champions starting from Armstrong, now. You can thank our friends at the WBA for their endless madcap web of splintering and retroactive promoting.

In the above chronological listing it should actually go:
62. David Avanesyan (WBA regular)
63. Lamont Peterson (WBA regular)
64. Errol Spence, Jr. (IBF)
65. Jeffrey Horn, Jr. (WBO)
66. Lucas Martín Matthysse (WBA regular)

Oi vei, WBA.

 

Everything's bigger in Texas! (including the Cowboys Stadium facilities manager's plumbing bill that month, hi-yo!!!)

 

Double-dipping with regular and super champs is one thing, but I categorically refuse to indulge the WBA their "interim" nonsense and thus won't count anyone like Diego Gabriel Cháves. That way lies madness, if we pop the lid off that can.

 

I feel like these are probably safe consensus bottom-tier picks?

TIER Z
Tomás Molinares, Billy Backus, Genaro Léon, Red Cochrane, Manning Galloway, Crisanto España, Kermit Cintrón, and Don Jordan

Objections? Anybody care to undertake a white-knighting quest on behalf of some maligned party's honor? If not, that cuts our list of 66 welterweight champs below Tier VII down to 58 still mucking about in the middle, bouncing off each other like so many protons in a Cerium atom's nucleus. [/super-nerd]

 

This is pretty interesting...

While cross-referencing my picks for the bottom tier against the computerized algorithm BoxRec uses to rank boxers (via its merit-based points assignation system, which is doubtless flawed but can be a useful supplementary tool for research) expecting to find they generally aligned with the lowest points values of the 147lb belt holders, I found a few surprises. There are some absolute doozies (Amir Khan is greater than Cocoa Kid, for instance...and Backus, whom most consider among the weakest, is one spot higher on BoxRec's list than Živić, who subjective group evaluation put way up in Tier IV!) and lots of names with significantly higher or lower values than you might think.

Here's everybody with their all-time ranking at welter per BR:

(remember, #1-27 are ranked qualitatively as grouped per McGrain's tiering system; the rest from Cochrane on are still just chronological)

1. Ray Leonard #10
   
2. Sugar Ray Robinson N/A (guessing they rank him at MW? edit: they do, #1)
   
3. Henry Armstrong #11
   
4. José Ángel Nápoles #4
   
5. Kid Gavilán #23
   
6. Emile Griffith #5
   
7. Floyd Mayweather, Jr. #1 (his dad is #1273)
   
8. Tommy Hearns N/A (rated at 154lbs, #1)
   
9. Luis Manuel Rodríguez #24
   
10. Carmen Basilio #18
    
11. Fritzie Živić #59
    
12. Pernell Whitaker #7
    
13. Oscar De La Hoya #3
    
14. Felix Trinidad #14
    
15. Shane Mosley #6
    
16. Emmanuel Dapidran Pacquiao #2
    
17. Curtis Cokes #22
    
18. Donald Curry #32
    
19. Roberto Durán N/A (rated at lightweight, #1)
    
20. Carlos Palomino #42
    
21. Wilfred Benítez N/A (rated at 154lbs, #4)
    
22. José Cuevas #77
    
23. Marlon Starling #75
    
24. James McGirt Sr. #51
    
25. Tony DeMarco #104
    
26. Lloyd Honeygan #33
    
27. Benny Paret #142
    
28. Red Cochrane #133
    
29. Marty Servo #457
    
30. Johnny Bratton #94
    
31. Johnny Saxton #44
    
32. Virgil Akins #34
    
33. Don Jordan #126
    
34. Billy Backus #58
    
35. Ángel Espada #143
    
36. John H. Stracey #65
    
37. Milton McCrory #37
    
38. Mark Breland #153
    
39. Jorge Vaca #107
    
40. Simon Brown #29
    
41. Tomás Molinares #1484
    
42. Genaro Léon #1271
    
43. Manning Galloway #202
    
44. Aaron Davis #71
    
45. Maurice Blocker #113
    
46. Meldrick Taylor #76
    
47. Crisanto España #130
    
48. Gert Bo Jacobsen N/A (rated at lightweight, #211)
    
49. Eammon Loughran #325
    
50. Isufu Quartey #82
    
51. José Luis López #266
    
52. Mihai Leu #2097
    
53. Ahmed Kotiev #487
    
54. James Page #272
    
55. Daniel Santos N/A (rated at 154lb, #41)
    
56. Andrew Lewis #645
    
57. Vernon Forrest #39
    
58. Antonio Margarito N/A (rated at 154lb, #11)
    
59. Ricardo Mayorga N/A (rated at super middle, #20)
    
60. Michele Piccirillo #95
    
61. Cory Spinks #28
    
62. Jose Antonio Rivera N/A (rated at 154lb, #?? - not in top one thousand)
    
63. Zabdiel Judah #19
    
64. Luis Collazo #507
    
65. Carlos Manuel Baldomir #134
    
66. Ricky Hatton N/A (rated at 140lbs, #11)
    
67. Kermit Cintrón #194
    
68. Miguel Ángel Cotto #17
    
69. Paul Williams N/A (rated at 154lbs, #14)
    
70. Carlos Quintana #432
    
71. Andre Berto #161
    
72. Joshua Clottey N/A (rated at middleweight, #167)
    
73. Yuri Nuzhnenko #1110
    
74. Vyacheslav Senchenko #514
    
75. Isaac Hlatschwayo N/A (rated at lightweight, #205)
    
76. Dejan Zaveck N/A (rated at 154lb, #?? - not in top one thousand)
    
77. Victor Ortiz #132
    
78. Paulie Malignaggi #158
    
79. Randall Bailey #261
    
80. Devon Alexander #193
    
81. Adrien Broner N/A (rated at 140lbs, #16)
    
82. Shawn Porter #232
    
83. Ezekiel Brook N/A (rated at 154lb, #49)
    
84. Timothy Ray Bradley, Jr. #25
    
85. Marcos René Maidana #135
    
86. Keith Thurman #97
    
87. Danny Óscar García #31
    
88. Jessie Vargas #288
    
89. David Avanesyan #731
    
90. Lamont Peterson #93
    
91. Errol Spence, Jr. #305
    
92. Jeffrey Horn, Jr. #209
    
93. Lucas Martín Matthysse #79

BR's algorithm is seriously nonplussed by Michael Loewe.

 

You need to read again, now a little more carefully.

Those numbers are not "rankings", 1-27 are just copy/pastes of the names from McGrain's "greatest welterweight" tiers (I-VII, sans the guys from before the widely filmed era)...from #28-93 are literally just transposed from my original listing in CHRONOLOGICAL order from the first page.

 

User error.

 

16.

That's how many thread I count in the several pages since this was last bumped discussing real or hypothetical match-ups involving historical welterweight champions.

SIXTEEN THREADS.

You mutts are clearly willing to dissect these guys analytically, so why not divest those energies into something more worthwhile & permanent than a brief half-a-page conjectural on whether Mosley's chin would stand up to Cuevas' best shot or whatever?

 

Well, you've been a colossal disappointment, Classic Forum. I'm going to chuck the ball over the fence and give the General a chance to outshine you.