Went on a Liston watching spree this morning

I know Ali was blinded but I don't believe it was of Liston's doing. Even Dundee himself said it wasn't Liston's doing and no offense but I'd take his word over posters on a forum any day!

 

Fair go mate.

Liston threw almost twice as many punches as he had the round before and also had a far better connect rate. He went after Clay on the attack right from the start of round 5 which lasted much of the round. It was obvious from Clay's antics he was blinded as he basically advertised it.

It's basically impossible to not see that Liston went after Clay that round and no debate to the contrary could ever be entertained or respected.

Liston full well knew Clay was blinded and acted accordingly.

I do not believe foul play was afoot and Dundee's explanation is certainly more than enough for me.

It also shows that the fix was not on in any way, shape or form in the first fight. Liston threw punches that could have potentially knocked Clay out cold (remembering this is a little proven guy who had doubts put on his durability at this time comparative to later) and indeed landed a couple of these. He was swinging for the fences at times.

 

All due respect, I don't see Liston going after Ali much until the end.

 

It's been awhile since 've seen Liston-Machen, but my recollection is that the footage verified Machen's claim that his right hand was injured in that he hardly used it at all

I missed out on the claim that he was blinded. I have always thought that it would have been interesting to watch what would have happened if Machen had been able to play opossum on the ropes and come out firing with two good hands like he loved to do. It was a trademark of his style, especially in his more mature years.

I might comment that at this point in my life, I don't care to re-watch all those old fight films I saw years ago just to post a comment on this Forum. There's too much else I want to do with my time. I re-watch enough of them as it is just because they are my favorites. I do enjoy, however, posting comments about what I think I know. Hold that against me if you like, but I don't care!! I do appreciate the younger guys who try to learn about history by watching the old fights for the first time, and It is my hope that some of them might find my perspectives useful.

 

• Machen later said he believed that Liston's handlers made deliberate use of illegal medication in an attempt to temporarily blind him during the fight. He theorized that Liston's handlers rubbed medication on their fighter's shoulders, which was transferred to Machen's forehead during clinches and dripped into his eyes. "I thought my eyes would burn out of my head, and Liston seemed to know it would happen," Machen said. When Liston fought Muhammad Ali—then Cassius Clay—in 1964, Ali returned to his corner after the fourth round and complained that there was something burning in his eyes and he could not see. "The same thing happened to me when I fought Liston in 1960," Machen said two days after Ali upset Liston. "Clay did the worst thing when he started screaming and let Liston know it had worked," Machen added. "Clay panicked. I didn't do that. I'm more of a seasoned pro, and I hid it from Liston."

 

Interesting!

 

Forgot to source that. Boxrec.

However, their is nothing on film showing vision issues on his behalf. That coupled with the fact that he waited till AFTER the Ali incident makes me believe it was sour grapes.

 

It's not my word Jerry Izenberg was solid. Why would Polino make that up? Doesn't make him look good. He could of made it up. People do all kinds of weird things.
Looking at the way the fight went it makes sense. A desperate move.

 

I always thought the way Williams went down look like he was shaking and blinking. I'm not a 100 on that. I'm pretty sure it was the rematch.

 

That there was something wrong with Machen's hand was clear enough, but he didn't display any obvious vision troubles like Clay did. I think he attributed that to his greater experience,

If you have the Hauser book you can look up what the cornerman supposedly said. But from memory it was Liston who supposedly told his handlers to do it and it had happened before.

 

Again I'll take the word of Dundee. The most reliable source. I don't believe Liston ever used liminent to win fights. He didn't need it.

 

I understand that but don't you think film would've shown him at least blinking profusely if something was amiss? Also he only came out with that story after the same thing supposedly happened with Clay. Before that he was sticking with his hand issue excuse. If it really happened I think he would've said something immediately.

 

Perhaps he didn't get it as bad as Clay did, if he got it. Fighters can mask a lot of pain, so I wouldn't be surprised if he could hide some discomfort. He obviously wasn't totally blinded, though.

Yeah, casts a bit of a doubt on the whole thing if he didn't say anything until after the Clay thing. That could have put it in a new light for him, though.

 

Ok, and that's fine. But the point being Ali was blinded by some substance that came from Liston's corner intentional or not for almost 2rds. And I see you wrote Liston did not go after Ali when he was blinded or in your words "I don't see Liston going after Ali until the end". My question to you is this, did you actually watch this fight? It's obvious Liston knew he had a wounded fighter in front of him and acted accordingly. That's not close to debatable , it's on film. At the end of the fight Ali was "Putting a Whuppin'. on Liston As Ali probably would say, with nothing of substance coming back from Liston. Was Liston setting up his story for the injured shoulder? I don't know. But it was obvious he was getting out gunned at the end.

 

I think that Bert Sugar said Zora Foley complained of the sore eye treatment too.

I judge champions on their ability to assume the best heavyweight in the world at the moment of being champion. Sonny was absolutely the best in the world when he was champion and he proved this about as strongly as any champion ever did when he won the title in one round. He had already beat Williams, Foley, Machen and Harris in the space of one year. So he scores high as being the best in the world.

Patterson had been a legitimate champion. But was the least equipped of any champion to beat Sonny. Floyd was not only one of the smallest champions he was also the most vulnerable champions since he had been knocked out in a title defence once before. In fact the only heavyweight champion Floyd ever beat also knocked him out! Floyd had won the heavyweight title from a current lightheavyweight champion. In many respects both Ingo and Sonny became heavyweight champion after beating a lightheavyweight.

Beyond proving to be the best in the world, Sonny is a more difficult champion to assess in relation to other champions who won great fights. This is another important factor. Greatest champions win great fights. Sonny is a great champion. But did he win great fights?