I don’t think either fight was fixed. The first Sonny simply quit, there’s no two ways about it, physically although he was taking a sustained beating, mentally he’d gone. In the return fight I think he simply took a dive but not because the fix was in. I don’t think he could handle all of the hullabaloo in both fights, Ali, all the circus and crazy hype that was around.
One thing: Isnt tge timekeeper suppose to stsrt a count by hinself? I believe that is how Walcott came to stopping it,Sonny was on the canvas for the full 10.
I suppose it depends on your definition of a fixed fight. I've heard this for years about Marciano - Walcott 2, and Ali - Liston 2. If we're saying Walcott and Liston were looking for pay days and a way out of the 2nd fights, I can agree with that. But then that probably applies to other Heavyweight fights as well. Tyson - Seldon comes to mind, and others.
It's the referee's duty to take charge of the fight and instruct the timekeeper when to start the count. Walcott should have waited until Ali went to a neutral corner and then instructed the timekeeper. Instead he allowed Ali's antics to distract him from what he (Walcott) was supposed to do. After makeing sure the fighter who scored the knockdown is under control, the referee then is supposed to be close enough to the downed fighter to recite the count so that he has the opportunity to hear it through the din of the crowd noise even if he is dazed.
I can imagine what those guys would do if they landed a solid punch right on the button to the exposed chin of Sonny like Ali did. Ali had set his feet very well and the punch landed with full leverage. All I ask people to do is the watch Ali's punch with an open mind. Admittedly, the camera angle wasn't the best, but if a person doesn't have his opinion preset that the fight was a fix, then it is just as easy to interpret the punch as a solid blow that would daze and knock down a fighter who could take a good punch. I guess it's just not my nature to go around and assume that everybody in the fight game is a crook.
It’s funny how some people (not here) knee jerk and cry fix without concerning themselves with the finer, more bothersome details such as logical whys and wherefores. The accusation simply amounts to a rejection of what they saw as not being real, and/or an outcome that, in all possibilities entertained, they could not have calculated beforehand. Simply throwing the mob, the NOI, death threats, a sniper, etc. into a hat and mixing it up is about as satisfactory as being told that a magic trick is broadly achieved using smoke and mirrors. One thing that gets lost in all the controversy of the rematch: if Liston was KD’d legit but elected to stay down despite being perfectly viable to continue, then we were perhaps robbed of a truly pinnacle performance from Ali. For as long as the fight lasted, there was sufficient window to assume that Ali might go on to post an ATG display. Up to and incl. the punch that put Liston down, Muhammad made all the right, sublime moves. For the first fight Ali clearly felt that he also needed to invoke heavy duty psychological warfare to cause an unsettled Liston to meet him part way. I can’t say for sure, but it seems he wasn’t anywhere near as mouthy for the rematch. Ali’s leap of confidence and maturity really showed in Lewiston. As great as his performance and self belief was in Miami it was driven by pure nervous energy in the early rds. Ali did admit to Liston being scary and intimidating. Ali started the rematch perfectly calm and in control as if to say “I’ve got this!” I believe he was taking it to Sonny even more aggressively and confidently than the first fight with unbelievably graceful mobility in support. Tbh, though lighter at 206 lb, Ali looked very healthy, better defined, more muscular and actually stronger overall. The iconic photo of Ali standing over Liston, screaming for him to get up, exemplifies the fantastic shape he was in.
Sonny took Clay lightly and couldn't deal with his agility and height so I would say the first fight was legit the second fight, Sonny threw that one
Screaming for him to get up because he knew he hadn't hit him hard enough to ko him.After the fight he told his Brother Rahman," he laid down."
No not enough to KO him, which is the way I see it as I’ve previously stated. Enough for a flash KD though I believe. Note also, Ali is screaming at Liston almost the instant he hits the deck, even before any time has passed for Liston to attempt to rise. If Ali didn’t think he hit Liston hard enough even for a KD, he could’ve entertained a slip or Liston being off balance. Not enough time had passed for Ali to figure that Liston had laid down and was going to stay down. Let’s face it, Ali himself could be a fruit bat any which way back in those days and his own actions were just as dubious as Liston’s and Ali contributed equally to the confusion that followed after Liston hit the deck. It is possible that Ali did believe he landed sufficiently to at least drop Liston and that he immediately put on some crazy schtick to intimidate Sonny while he was down. Also, for whatever reason Ali chose to scream at Liston as he did, he was pushed away by Walcott only to run back to Sonny to abuse him again. At that point, I would estimate that Liston was down for about 4- 5 seconds. Immediately Walcott pushed Ali away again and just as quickly Ali preemptively raised his arms in victory and began a circuit around the ring AS IF it was all over. As Sonny propped himself on one arm, appearing about to rise, he fell back down just as Ali came flying around him again, Ali still failing to go to a neutral corner. So much for Ali’s premature demand for Liston to rise which was quickly replaced with his claiming victory, all before 10 secs had even elapsed. When Liston finally arose with Walcott waving the fight back on, Ali absolutely tore into Sonny AS IF expecting nothing or little in return. If Ali thought Liston was totally faking and not actually hurt, then why, with Liston now back on his feet and the fight back on, did he tear in with such impunity? One could possibly guess that 1) Ali did accept or came to accept that Liston was actually hurt when he went down and that he was still out of it upon arising OR that Ali actually believed Liston wasn’t hurt but somehow also knew Liston wasn’t going to fight back even when the fight was waved back on.. Even after the finish, fake or not, Liston still wavered on his feet and the previously contemptuous Ali then saw fit to pat Sonny on the shoulder in apparent consolation. A strange fight indeed, with questionable behaviours from both combatants and the referee.
Since we like time machine fantasy fights so much here, mine is that Ali doesn't have a hernia and the 1964 Boston rematch would've happened as scheduled. Maybe I'll start a thread.
neither was fixed. Liston underrated Clay in the first, and lost heart in the 2nd after the knockdown. Making an instant decision to give up as you lie on the deck shouldnt constitute a fix. I mean, nearly 60yrs later and theres not 1 shred of evidence other than hearsay
Nobody can ever say that fall when attempting to get back up isnt one of the fakest things ever. Liston obviously faking that. Best case scenario he just wanted to quit after a legit knockdown. My feeling says the mob cashed out on Sonny. Arguably they did the first time as welk given the odds and liston quitting on his stool . Imagine if your owned fighter quits like that? You would want to kill the guy. Its all very strange and suspicious. Which suits Sonny's birth, fights, death and basically his whole life.