Were both Willard and Ali both totally oblivious that they were involved in fixed fights?

Johnson vs Willard i concur with the majority here.

With regard Ali vs Liston, it is possible Liston was 'encouraged' to quit at a certain specified time by unknown others, as Liston was rather
"a riddle, wrapped in a mystery, inside an enigma" which continued even to the possible circumstances of his death, however i do not believe Ali was in on the ruse.

Like so much in the history of our sport, we will never really know, especially as all the pugilists involved are now in the dressing room in the sky.

 

Foneda Cox, Liston's sparring partner and friend said he told Sonny he was going to have a decent bet on him for the 2nd fight,he quoted Sonny as saying,"don't do that man ,anything can happen when to heavyweights get in the ring."
After the fight Cox said he taxed Liston with not telling him he was going into the tank,he said Sonny replied,"with your big mouth,we'd both be wearing cement boots."
I think the punch was legitimate,I don't think it was hard enough to drop Liston and I found his falling backwards to the canvas singularly unconvincing.I don't think Ali had anything to do with the dive.

 

It's also possible he quit on a subconscious level. I don't think Jersey Joe was physically or mentally prepared for another long war with Rocky.

 

Ali's too prideful to lay down and lose. This is comedy.

 

Thanks for that info, i must be honest i had never heard that before, another chapter of the darker side of our sport.
I guess the shy and retiring conqueror of Liston did a ok job in our sport, so fix, dive or whatever the title went into capable hands.

 

Neither fight was a "fix".

 

I think this is pretty accurate.

Liston's version, which I find plausible, is that Ali was running around the ring erratically, and Liston went back down because he wasn't sure if Ali would hit him. Liston did eventually get back up to resume fighting.

The Ali we know today is not the Ali that people knew back then. He was looked at like an unpredictable crazy person to many.

Ali maintained till his death, in private, that the fight was legitimate. At least that was his genuine belief.

 

Ali had to be convinced by his brother Rahman that the punch was hard enough to drop Sonny,I find that very telling.Each has his own opinion and none can say with any certainty they are right.
Nice to see you here R.

 

No fix in the Willard-Johnson fight as far as I can tell.

I don't think Ali knew about any sort of fix being in, but it's possible I guess. If he did know, then it doesn't make sense to create all the ruckus he did, he would've gone to the neutral corner and raised his hands when Walcott counted Liston out, just like a normal fight.

As for Marciano-Walcott 2, it was completely legit in my view. It seems JJW could've tried to get up sooner and was fully conscious of the count, but he was seriously hurt. His legs are extremely stiff when he gets up, no way he was faking stiff knees - perhaps he didn't try to get up earlier because he didn't trust his legs?

I've arrived at that conclusion based purely on what I see, not on what I think Walcott would've been thinking - although I'm sure the idea of going another possible 14 rounds with Rocky wasn't the most appealing idea in the world to him at that point!

 

Exactly, Liston’s own extended left contributing to his diminished view, with Ali dropping the right over the top of the left - with Liston moving in to add to the force as well.

What people should be equally amazed by im it’s own right is how much you can in the slo mo replays that is very difficult if not impossible to pick up in real time - as Ali once said, I think, he was too fast even for the cameras. Lol.

 

I want to echo @mcvey ‘s sentiments - good to see you back Rez and welcome back. In my eyes, your vids are legendary.

 

I think Walcott could have gotten up, but mentally retired from boxing completely at that moment. He knew he was going to lose and just didn't feel it was worth getting up to take a beating. Let's not forget, he never fought again after that.