Were Does Sonny Liston Rank in ATG Heavyweight list?

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by Nigel_Benn, Mar 14, 2009.


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  1. Axl_Nose

    Axl_Nose Well-Known Member Full Member

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    Mcgrain your a guy who i respect .. May i ask were you rate Holmes and Lewis if you rate Liston 3 - 6 .. ??
     
    Axl_Nose, Mar 14, 2009
    Axl_Nose, Mar 14, 2009
    #46
  2. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    Lewis at either 3 or 4.

    Holmes at 7, 8 or 9.
     
    McGrain, Mar 14, 2009
    McGrain, Mar 14, 2009
    #47
  3. Axl_Nose

    Axl_Nose Well-Known Member Full Member

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    If Tunney's HW record isnt that special then you will concede that Dempsey's record isnt that special ?? There seems to be 2 seperate trains of thought with Dempsey and Tunney just because Tunney fought at LHW .. Tunney fought Greb 5 times, Dempsey refused to fight Greb at all and you must remember that Dempsey wasnt a Big Heavyweight in todays standards, in fact there wasnt that much difference between Dempsey, Tunney and much later Marciano, they were of very similar size ....

    LHW in modern terms is a million miles away from Heavyweight but not back then ...... Gene Tunney was a brilliant fighter, no matter how many of you guys want to denigrate him .. Liston v Tunney is laughable to me, Gene schools the ponderous, obvious Liston .. Liston wouldnt be facing Patterson here !!
     
    Axl_Nose, Mar 14, 2009
    Axl_Nose, Mar 14, 2009
    #48
  4. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    Right now:

    1 - Muhammad Ali. A lock. He should be considered a lock for #1 IMO.

    2 - Joe Louis. Should never be above Ali, but nor should there ever be anyone above him. Another lock.

    3 - Lennox Lewis. Probably the highest rating, in any of the old-time divisions, that i give a fighter with a quesionable jaw - sometimes slips to 4, never lower.

    4 - Sonny Lison. Never lower than four, never higher than three. I am aware I rate him higher than most on the board.

    5 - Joe Frazier. In possesion of the greatest win in HW history, a genione head to head nightmare for any boxer (Ali, Holmes, Tunney) likely to beat any puncher unable to put him down with the single shots. At his peak, I don't consider it a possibility that he could be outboxed. Never lower than 7 on my list, never higher than 5.

    6 - Jack Johnson. Starting to slip down my list. Was #4 at one point. This is the lowest i've had him.

    7 - Mike Tyson. Like Liston, scores high on head to head. Beaten near peak by a bit of an outsider, to say the least, and limited to a single plan, so more beatable than many make out imo, especially when you throw in questionably mental attributes.

    8 - Larry Holmes. Rateable above this slot, but generally doesn't get higher on my list. Not a brilliant resume. Some missing names. Lost his title to a LHW moving up, and failed with a second bite, too. I don't like either decision. But none of the other guys on this list would be in such life or death fights with a LHW, twice, I don't think.

    9 - Rocky Marciano. Generally overated on the board, but the unbeaten runs sneaks him into my 10. I've rated him at 8-11.

    10 - Harry Wills. Best resume in HW history? Might be. I've had him between 9 and 12.



    Just missing the cut are Jeffries (6-12) Foreman (11-12) Dempsey (12-13) and Holyfield (9-13).
     
    McGrain, Mar 14, 2009
    McGrain, Mar 14, 2009
    #49
  5. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    I think it's widely acknowledged that Dempsey's ring record isn't that special, in this type of company.
     
    McGrain, Mar 14, 2009
    McGrain, Mar 14, 2009
    #50
  6. Axl_Nose

    Axl_Nose Well-Known Member Full Member

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    I'm the total opposite of you .. For me Holmes is 3 or 4 and Lewis is maybe out of the top 10 ...... Apart from a past his best Holyfield and a Shot Tyson, who did Lewis beat of any quality ??
    I dont particularly rate Golota, Briggs, Grant and Mavrovic as anything special and you have the fact that Lewis has been knocked out by 2 very average fighters in McCall and Rahman .... What other Heavyweight great has been beaten convincingly by guys of the limited standard of McCall and Rahman, i cant think of anyone .... Lewis is way over-rated for me, and he never had to go 15 rounds which i think would have been an impossibility for him .... Lewis is 7 or 8 at best, his resume is mostly window dressing .. He never faced Tyson, Bowe or Holyfield when they were dangerous ....
     
    Axl_Nose, Mar 14, 2009
    Axl_Nose, Mar 14, 2009
    #51
  7. Maxmomer

    Maxmomer Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Jack Dempsey consistently fought as a heavyweight throughout his career and beat more/better heavyweights than did Tunney, though his resume, too, is underwhelming. Gene Tunney just doesn't have a great resume as a heavyweight, you have to put his wins at LWH and HW together to get a full picture. He is a P4P ATG, and in my top 20 heavyweights, but not the top 10.
     
    Maxmomer, Mar 14, 2009
    Maxmomer, Mar 14, 2009
    #52
  8. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    The answer is "everyone who would fight him". He beat everyone. Either Chris Pontius or OLD FOGEY (i forget which one) did a statistacl break down of the great HW's a couple of years back and Lewis has more top contenders than anyone since Ali and Louis. He also has more puchers. If you're dismissing his level of competition you can take Dempsey with him for certain, Holmes, Liston and Mike Tyson.
     
    McGrain, Mar 14, 2009
    McGrain, Mar 14, 2009
    #53
  9. Sweet Pea

    Sweet Pea Obsessed with Boxing banned

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    :good
     
    Sweet Pea, Mar 14, 2009
    Sweet Pea, Mar 14, 2009
    #54
  10. Robbi

    Robbi Marvelous Full Member

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    Who said "we are not allowed to discuss the top contenders he fought"? I take it this is a reference to my earlier comment on Liston. Well, I did say "Lets hear it" when I ended that paragraph. Don't be so serious. Go ahead, tell me about all these great fighters Liston fought in non title bouts.



    Liston IMO was closer to his prime than Holmes. Not a massive difference. But Liston was still ticking along nicely around 62-63 and looked close to his best when he beat Patterson twice. Holmes was on the downside and still managed to pull out wins against younger opponents. He was physically on the downside since he beat Cooney in the summer of 1982.

    Holmes reigned at the top for longer than Liston. He also never had youth on his side when he initially won the title. He managed to hold onto the title for over 7 years. He beat other alphabet champions during his reign. Liston hardly layed a glove on Ali over two fights. Holmes had close fights with Spinks, and many consider the rematch to be among the worst decisions in recent heavyweight championship history. I will confess that a prime Ali and a blown up light-heavyweight are two different scenarios.

    Holmes proved more as a heavyweight than Liston. His opponents were better. I can see Cooney taking apart any of Liston's challengers, outwith Patterson, who might well have been too quick for him. Norton, Witherspoon, Weaver, etc, would have done well in the 50's IMO.

    Holmes probably has the best non-title bout win out of them both. Mercer was a top rated heavyweight whom he beat at the age of 42. Easily as well it must be said.

    Holmes reigned at the top for longer than Liston and done his best work where it counted most, as heavyweight champion of the world. The man wasn't beaten until he was 2 months shy of his 36th birthday.
     
    Robbi, Mar 14, 2009
    Robbi, Mar 14, 2009
    #55
  11. Robbi

    Robbi Marvelous Full Member

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    You can clean out a division, but it's all about quality within it. Tell me who these beasts were he swept under the carpet.
     
    Robbi, Mar 14, 2009
    Robbi, Mar 14, 2009
    #56
  12. Robbi

    Robbi Marvelous Full Member

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    :huh
     
    Robbi, Mar 14, 2009
    Robbi, Mar 14, 2009
    #57
  13. Robbi

    Robbi Marvelous Full Member

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    You heard from your mate Manassa recently? More enemies than Al Qaeda that one.
     
    Robbi, Mar 14, 2009
    Robbi, Mar 14, 2009
    #58
  14. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    I absolutely refuse to get drawn into one of these all-night semantics things with you, but you wrote:

    "i don't want to hear about the other top 10 contenders he beat during the 1950's and 1960's."




    Ali, in my opinion, is so vastly superior a HW to Micheal Spinks, any comparison of the two is not sensible. Which is, after all, the other end of that equation..



    I've acknowledged that already.

    Nor did Liston. He had been ducked for most of his best years and spent some time in prison. Liston was the older of the two in coming to the title. Another score for Liston if this is an issue for you.



    Tyson was not as good as Ali. These were the best guys each man faced. Both lost.

    There was not an awful lot between Patterson and Holyfield for me. Liston won by devastating KO, Holmes lost to Holyfield.

    Moving back into Holmes's prime, he beat Norton in a life or death struggle (hard to see anything but an early win for Liston if he subs or Larry in that one) which is probably the next best fighter either man faced, but it was very close. Meanwhile, Cat Williams, the next man down got decimated by Liston twice.

    Maybe Holmes did face better men, but he tended to be beaten by them.


    I've ackonwledged that.

    I thought you'd gotten past this with our little chat about Wills? How can the HW title mean so much without Wills being cast out of top 15 debate forever? He never held or fought for it. He's just inside the top 10 with an argument to be higher.

    When he got beaten by a light-heavywieght. You've already mentioned one of his best wins coming after this. But he lost twice in life or death struggle to a man moving up from 175. A man Tyson obliterated in a round. A man, who, around the same size of Patterson, shouldn't be mentioned as the vanquisher of a top 5 hw.

    Liston fought a the top for a huge stretch of years. He had nothing like Holmes' protection. Holmes cherry-picked. Liston fought and beat everybody. He was beaten twice around peak by the GOAT who was also his stylistic cryptonite.
     
    McGrain, Mar 14, 2009
    McGrain, Mar 14, 2009
    #59
  15. Sweet Pea

    Sweet Pea Obsessed with Boxing banned

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    In his prime he was one of the most dangerous and intimidating presences the HW division has ever known.

    Victories over Floyd Patterson, Zora Folley, Cleveland Williams, Eddie Machen, Nino Valdes, Roy Harris, Willie Besmanoff, Mike DeJohn, Amos Johnson, Chuck Wepner, Marty Marshall, Johnny Summerlin, etc.

    I wouldn't rank him as high as fourth, but I agree with SuzieQ's point.
     
    Sweet Pea, Mar 14, 2009
    Sweet Pea, Mar 14, 2009
    #60
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