Were "Patterson & Frazier" protected by C. D'Amato & Yank Durham?

:twisted:

 

They were good managers, yes.

 

D'Amato did protect Patterson to a certain degree, until Floyd himself made the decision to defend against Liston.

However, upon Patterson's passing, he and D'Amato were also eulogized and credited by the press for breaking the stranglehold Jim Norris and the IBC previously had, an immense service to the sport. If Machen, Folley and Pastrano hadn't been affiliated with the IBC, they may well have attained title shots in the late 1950s. Ditto Cleveland Williams.

As for Frazier, I don't buy this until after the FOTC had transpired. He passed up the WBA tournament to take on the one opponent who defeated him in the amateur ranks, and ended 1968 by taking on a challenger who decked him twice and gave him hell in 1966, Ringo. Bonavena was a formidable risk, and beating him a seconded time elevated Smoke to an ATG caliber HW. Ramos had never been stopped, and was on a 15 fight winning streak going back over two years. 13 of those wins were by knockout, while two of the decisions were over Terrell and Machen. (In fact, Ramos actually dropped Eddie in the eighth, an extremely unusual event.)

Jerry Quarry was younger than Joe, and just three months earlier had produced what may have been his finest career win over Mathis, during a year Ellis and the WBA Title were in mothballs.

Leotis Martin may well have gotten a shot at Smoke after knocking out Liston, but got retired by a retinal tear in that fight. Mac Foster may well have gotten Bob Foster's shot at Frazier, but Jerry sidetracked Mac. Leotis and Mac were probably the best primed HW punchers in contention during Joe's 1969-1971 peak.

Billy Conn and Archie Moore made credible challenges of Louis and Marciano, while Maxim went the championship distance in a dull challenge of Charles. (Joey also had a previous decision win over JJW.) These guys were perfectly capable of handling themselves with heavyweights. Bob Foster was the undisputed LHW Champion, but he wasn't reigning over a marquee division of contenders. He wanted a shot at his buddy, and it was a suitable comeback from Smoke's fractured ankle. A dreadful mismatch in retrospect, but Bob had good height and reach, decent skills, quality experience, tremendous power at 175, and Joe could be hit by an opponent of that caliber. So few belonged in the ring with Frazier at that time that his challenger might as well be a recognized name.

Now, it's a different matter after the FOTC. The chip was off Joe's shoulder, he'd left not a small part of himself in the ring during that classic, and I think he was just biding time until Muhammad could work his way back to another lucrative challenge. Foreman snuffed that out to get the big payoff in Kinshasa himself, while we now know that Norton would have sidetracked Ali if Joe had somehow gotten past George in Jamaica. Ali-Frazier II was just over a year after Kingston, and that's probably the earliest a second world title fight between these two could have transpired. (Of course Yank had passed by then. He seconded Frazier for the final time against Bugner.)

 

Good stuff Duo.

 

I honestly think it was more about timing than anything with Frazier. Liston, Foster and Shavers are the usual names that are brought up when people say that Smokin Joe was protected from legit HW punchers.
Liston was still relevant in the late sixties but was on the outs with most sanctioning bodies due to his alleged drug use and connections with the Mob. Foster had his chance to fight Frazier but blew it when he lost to Quarry. Shavers wasn't even on the scene when Frazier was on top so the possibility of a Frazier-Shavers matchup was zero.

With all this said, I still believe that '67-'71 Frazier was a man on a mission and would have beaten these guys as Liston no longer possessed the fire to train for 12-15 rounders and 1-2 punchers like Foster were no match for Frazier(not to mention the gulf in class). Shavers would have been really dangerous as the only time they could realistically have been matched up was when Frazier was well past it.

 

There is a such thing as successful navigation and it does not have to add up to protect. There are smart managers that will avoid a fight that offers more risk than reward and this is smart. Cus was going to leave Floyd at 175 because he felt he was all wrong for Marciano and later on he wanted to avoid Liston but it was Floyd that wanted the fight.

Frazier fought everyone, he could have fought Liston but the reward was too small for the risk, Joe feared no man and fought Bonavena,Quarry,Ellis,Ali,and later on Foreman, You got to give a corner credit for a navigated path to the title without taking dumb, needless fights

 

I actualy think that Frazier was matched prety hard.

 

I think it works both ways for the so called dangerous chalengers Floyd and Frazier were suposedly navagated away from. for example did george Foreman fight mac Foster, old Liston, quarry, ellis, bonnavena and leotis to get his shot? Did big cat williams, face either folley, ingo, pastrano and machen during Floyds watch?

I think the bottom line is did the champions beat the men you had to beat to be regarded as the best in the world? Frazier did - with bells on! you would have to say ellis, bonnavena, quarry and muhammad ali were the most formidable collection of heavyweights at that time.

Pre Liston you would have to say (with an albeit slightly less strong argument) that knocking out unbeaten champion ingo in the return also put patterson firmly at the top in emphatic fashion. No other heavyweight at that time could claim as high credentials.

 

JFK made Patterson fight Liston...

 

After the IBC, we had Don King and the alpha guys running amok, you take down one only to have it get replace with something worse in this case.

 

How many fighters today would be put in with the experience level Patterson and Frazier were early in their careers? By today's standards, these guys were overmatched early on, not protected.

In his second pro fight, Patterson fought a guy with over 70 pro bouts. Sure Walker lost nearly as many as he won, but that's a lot of pro experience to put in there with a kid with only one bout. When Patterson was 3-0, he fought a guy who was 21-6 and Sabotin outweighed him by 7.5 pounds. Next meets a guy 19-7-1. Patterson was only 5-0 when he faced 33-18-5 Dick Wagner, who also outweighed him by 9 pounds. When Floyd was 9-0, he faced world class 47-6-1 Yvon Durelle. Patterson was only 11-0 when he beat 43-10-6 Alvin Williams. He was a mere 13-0 when he took on world class former world lightheavyweight champion Joey Maxim, who had a record of 79-21-4. A kid with 13 bouts going up against a guy with over 100? Ridiculous. Maxim had not exactly disgraced himself in several fights with Archie Moore.

Now take Frazier. He's only 2-0 when he takes on a guy 12-4. He's a mere 5-0 when he was put in with 30-5-1 Dick Wipperman. Hell, I see heavyweights today with over 20 fights who would be afraid to fight a guy with that record unless they were paid big money. At 10-0, he fought 20-13-1 Billy Daniels, no slouch. At a mere 11-0, he was put in with 21-2 Oscar Bonavena, a guy who had beaten Gregorio Peralta and George Chuvalo. Talk about tough matching! At 12-0, Frazier faced 50-8-3 Eddie Machen, a guy with vast high level experience and who had recently beaten Jerry Quarry. Holy toledo! Protected? I don't think so. At 13-0, he fought 29-8-1 Doug Jones, best known for giving then Cassius Clay hell. He was coming off decision losses to Thad Spencer and Ernie Terrell, no slouches. At 16-0, Frazier took on the iron-jawed, very strong 47-13-2 George Chuvalo, who was on a 12-fight win streak, not to mention vast high quality experience, including having gone the 15-round distance with Ali. If that's protected, then I'd like to see what overmatched was.