I heard that Flood was one of the most feared and notorious hoodlums in New York, and that Sullivan beat him in his gang’s territory.
“On May 18, 1881, a big crowd boarded a barge at the foot of West Forty-third street. It was one of the toughest crowds I ever saw in my life. Some of the worst characters in New York were aboard. And in all fairness, I must say that I was the cause of many of the tough birds being on deck. I'll mention one of the reasons I say Sullivan was one of God's noble-men. In repeated interviews, Sullivan that it was i who saved him from being jobbed on the barge that day. I must confess and I know John L is aware of the truth - I was the one who planned to job him. When that boat left the dock, Sullivan was doomed. There wasn't a chance in a million for him to win. At all costs, Flood was to win. That was why all those tough citizens were there. If Sullivan looked like a winner, these roughnecks were to stampede and stop the fight, which would have meant that all bets were off. It was Sullivan's gameness enabled him to score a victory that de- spite such overwhelming odds.” -Sullivan’s manager Jimmy Wakely
This just reads like it banks on its reader being ignorant to gang violence in boxing in general. Sullivan's gameness did not defeat a mob of pistols. Period and end of. Either the set up is lies and the situation was not so dire, or the ending is lies and something more valuable to gangsters than watching a fight be fair happened. Or rather find any single other instance. Yankee, Morrissey, Ward in England. Plenty of times gangs controlled boxing matches and boxers. None which end the story in awe of the champion and his "gameness" being able to stop a preplanned result. Would you believe a story about Usyk busting up a drug deal and didn't get murdered by cartel because he was so "game"? Yeah... well ... better bring more than this fantasy story to make it believable.
Yes, I am perfectly capable of dropping unsourced quotes and calling that a source. I don't mean to be a jerk, just saying an unsourced quote from a man with a vested interest in Sullivan isn't really a source. But this is: Plattsburgh Daily Republican: WITH THE fight due to start soon, John Flood had to have a last "light snack." And while his trainer berated and begged him to stop, Sullivan's opponent virtually gorged himself with two pounds of steak. Sullivan ate too, for there was really no assurance as to how long they would have to wait before the battle could begin. But John L, at this stage of his career was a careful athlete, ate very little. WHEN THE two men entered the ring, on the barge it announced the fight was to he under London Prize-ring rules. John L. won the toss for corners and chose the west side so the sun would be in his opponents eyes. In Flood's corner crouched Barney Aaron and Sam Hurst, able seconds. In Sullivan's corner was manager Billy Madden and Joe Goss, the former champion, who was helping his old *sorry Adam cutting in here, I just can't tell what the word is. F is the only clear letter. Friend? Foe? some other eff word? I dunno for sure* The fighters donned skin-tight gloves. Referee Al Smith gave the signal and the two men rushed out of their corners. Twice John L. feinted and Flood ducked. The second time John L landed a right uppercut. Flood clinched. Sullivan hammered a hard left and a hard right flush to the stomach. Flood dropped on his right knee which, under the rules, ended the first round, It was all Sullivan so far. AFTER a few minutes rest the battle resumed. Flood was more aggressive but Sullivan continued hammering at that overloaded stomach and heart. Flood won the second round. The next two were fairly even with John. L. continuing his merciless, assault on Flood's midriff. In the fifth stanza John L. switched his attack. A right uppercut floored Flood in 30 seconds. Flood is beaten -- If you check with CBZ, who are the only reasonable sources for his record online that lists Flood that I am aware of, they have it listed may 6th and 8 rounds. That comes from the Richfield Springs Daily, and provide no more info. The Elmira Gazette claims 9 rounds and that Flood had made a good show of it Utica Daily Press calls Flood a poor fighter and implies Sullivan carried him The Sun in 1884 has a interview with Flood asking for a rematch. Seems to imply the fix was against him not Sullivan. Anyway, point is there's heaps of sources if you look for them. Where that quote came from is probably a source itself. Plenty of them have variant reports. This one, this quote, reads more grandiose and lacks critical thought more than any of the Apollonian myths I've translated for youse guys! Only John L is so impressive men holster pistols and take financial losses out of respect and only if you take John L's manager's unsourced quote at value. It should be said, Billy Madden was his manager. Jimmy Weekly and Harry Phillips were backers.
The story about Sullivan being saved by his gameness comes from Wakely's account in 1918, immediately after Sullivan's death. Wakely was promoting the fight and, as he told it, had given orders that Sullivan wasn't to be allowed to win but when he spoke to him found himself so impressed that he changed his mind. I don't know how much truth there is in it, but it would be a very strange story for Wakely to invent, considering he doesn't exactly come out a hero. https://ibb.co/mrCjGV13
The source for Wakely’s quote is from the Sunday Morning St. Louis Post Dispatch, February 24 1918. It’s an entire series on the life of Sullivan from Wakely’s perspective, not sure whether or not he was ever a manager of Sullivan but I do know that Madden left at some point due to frustration with Sullivan’s alcoholism. Maybe Wakely took over at some point? I also recently found this from his ‘life of John L.’ Series that gives more context : “THE police had been tipped off about the fight. They had to come around from the East River. The barge was towed up the Hudson by a tug. We knew that the police boat was on our trail. We sailed up to Yankers. I pitched the ring-my- self on the floor used for dancing. When everything was ready, I went up to Sullivan's dressing room and said to Billy-Madden, who was handling him: "You'd better hurry up and get that big fellow of yours downstairs. so that he can take his licking and have it over with." Madden khew about the plot. Sullivan did, too. "I know the best of it will be the worst of it," said Madden. Do you think that Sullivan quailed? I should say not. "Come on, Billy," said "let's fight, anyway." Sullivan, Sullivan's indomitable fighting spirit. in the face of the knowledge that there were hundreds of the Big City's worst thugs down there to see that he didn't win, won my heart. I went down to the fellows that I had previously instructed to job John L., and told them to lay off. They were dumfounded. They couldn't understand why I switched plans. I told them how I came to do it. They didn't like my new orders. At that they cut the ropes when Sullivan won in the eighth round. The fight had hardly ended when the police boat drew up alongside of the barge.” This makes sense of it to me, if Sullivan and his crew had beforehand knowledge of the police’s presence I’m sure whatever gangsters there also knew. Wakely milking the story years later to portray himself as significant in the whole debacle isn’t out of the possibility either, but in the first post I made on the thread Wally also implies that Sullivan himself has told the story before though not with the knowledge of Wakely as the one there to “job” him.
it was overwhelming against Sullivan getting a fair shot and live but he did … as far as the matchup, Flood was a street fighting thug, not a champion caliber fighter
1881-05-17 The Boston Daily Globe A more orderly crowd it would be hard to find than those on board, and although it was feared at first that the "Highland boy" would not have a fair, square show, ere the fight began all these feelings were allayed and matters ran along smoothly. 1881-05-18 New York Sun This was still more evident when the fourth round opened. Flood was very much distressed, and Sullivan had got his wind and put in two blows to Flood's one, all telling upon Flood's eyes. Just here a tug approached, and there was a momentary recess, on the unjust suspicion that the harbor police were approaching. The tug carried a number of men who had come to see the fight. They were not permitted to board the barge and the fight went on, the round ending with a clinch, in which both men fell, Flood under. Time, 3 minutes. 1881-05-21 New York Clipper There was no attempt by the authorities to prevent them leaving, and after steaming up the river past Yonkers the principals entered the ring which had been pitched on the deck of the barge. Upon stripping it was seen that, although a powerful-looking man, Flood's physique was decidedly inferior to that of his antagonist, and the odds in betting, which all along had been in favor of Sullivan, were increased. ... Finally, at the conclusion of the eighth round, when they had been fighting sixteen minutes, and when Flood had been downed with a jaw-breaker, the New-Yorker's backer himself threw up a towel as a signal of defeat, saying that he did not wish to see a good man, who was willing to fight on, punished longer, when he plainly had no show to win. His action was approved of by the spectators, who saw that Flood was dead beat, and that it was folly for him to continue. ... The fight over, Sullivan crossed over to Flood's corner, cordially shook his hand, saying "We met as friends and we part as friends," and then started a subscription for his beaten antagonist. The boats were then headed for home, the return trip being prolonged in order to admit of disposing of all the refreshments possible, and the excursionists not reaching the city until the small hours of the morning.
Those hooligan pistoleros talked a big game til they laid their gaze upon the mighty John L, upon which they realized that should they discharge their weapons with dead aim to Sullivan it would have served at best to annoy him and at worst it might have made him angry. They wisely decided to keep their business holstered as not to provoke his ire.
I love this forum because you guys will do research. Respect all around. I have some questions, JIC one of youse knows the answer: Why isn't John Flood on Sullivan's boxrec record? Why are so many of his fights that are on his record with some source noted LPR with gloves but this fight, LPR with gloves, is never considered a QB fight?
