What 21 year old fighter was greater than Tyson from the Spinks fight?

So much wrong here.

Is there anyone on earth that believes the best version of Ali was the one against Cooper? Do you perhaps? Maybe we should be putting forward the Tyson that had a razor thin one with James Tillis then? Heck if Tillis took him to the wire......

Also lasting 10 rounds with Douglas whether in shape or not is not remotely comparable to going 15 with peak Ali. Douglas had zero mental game whilst Ali is in the conversation for the best mental game and taunting in the history of boxing at any weight.

As for Ali getting overconfident and Tyson landing a knockout shot yeah Ali was just so susceptible to sudden knockouts wasn't he.

 

He was susceptible to sudden knockdowns.

 

After the Cooper knockdown, before he ever won a title, he didn't hit the deck until Frazier dropped him all the way into the 15th round 8 years later.

He was never knocked down again despite fighting ATG's like Frazier and Foreman past peak and ATG punchers like Shavers way past his prime.

The guy was knocked down legitimately 3 times in his life. One of these was in his 11th pro fight and he came back to stop the guy.

One was prior to winning the title and he stopped the guy next round.

The last was against a peak ATG and he beat him the next two times they fought.

Tyson was actually stopped 6 times. He quit in two and realistically three of these and was counted out in two others. He never came off the floor to win.

It's extremely fair to say Tyson's durability both mental and physical is under question more so that Ali's.

 

It's obvious @Shahpoor is a huge fan of Iron Mike and that's fine. Hey, I have my favorites too, and I'd like to believe they could do more than evidence points to. Mike himself knew (and has stated more than once) that he couldn't have beaten Ali, Frazier, or Holmes in their prime. Proves he's far from stupid.

In fact, since I've come to this forum I've come a long way in my appreciation of Iron Mike. I came here kind of dismissive, thinking he had no heart, chin was suspect, etc. I was dead wrong. He took the hardest shots of one of the greatest punchers in heavy history (Ruddock), kept coming against fighters who were beating the living **** out of him (Holyfield, Douglas, Lewis), and during his reign in the 80s seemed as unbeatable as Foreman during his Frazier to Norton run. He most certainly deserves his place in the top 10 ATGs and was just in general a terrific fighter.

The men he thinks he would have lost to, in my opinion, all would have stopped him. And I don't think he would have made it against Foreman, Liston, 60s and early 70s Ali, or Louis either...almost convinced Bowe would have stopped him as well.

That said, Patterson, Marciano, Ellis, Dempsey, Tunney, Weaver, Norton, Thomas, Witherspoon, Coetzee, Page, Norton III-era Ali, Dokes, Johannsen, Charles, Walcott...Mike could have beaten any of them. That in itself is pretty impressive.

As far as Jack Johnson, comeback George, pre-Steward Lewis, and pre-1990 Holyfield I'm not so sure yet.

 

Toddle Arizmendi.

 

I dont think anyone tbh. Maybe guys with more skill but no one as effective as tyson was. For me the only guys capable would be guys with extreme circumstances like tyson....who was basically training like a professional from 14. It was hardcore as well. His whole existence was with one goal in mind with a guy in the background that was even more obsessed with achieving that goal. A guy who also had experience and know how at the top level.

Think benitez had extreme circumstances as well....was his dad not also an extremist. I reckon most guys in the discussion will probably have similar backgrounds. 21 year olds dont often get to that level without some form of extremism. Reckon floyd, roy jones etc. Had fathers that we,re extremists. Bet they we,rent bad at 21. Different discussion tbh. But reckon tyson was probably the most effective 21 year old in the modern era anyway.

 

I may have been off tangent above and not quite on the same page as Shahpoor.


If we are strictly talking as 21yo's H2H we are looking at the Ali going into the first Liston fight vs the best we ever saw Tyson. Now Ali seemed to mature and surge right at this point but Tyson still had loads of championship experience on him at this point. It all depends on how you rate the Ali that showed up for Liston. He did indeed get knocked down in his prior fight and you could certainly say it's an open contest.

 

Tyson was well educated in boxing history & often gracious.
But I never heard him as deferential as Foreman could be about comparisons...
I know he said Ali would beat him, but can we have any sources on him saying Holmes & Frazier would beat them in their respective primes?

 

Hi Entaowed! The 1st time I heard him say that was immediately after defeating Larry, during the postfight interview. Granted, it can be relatively easy to be gracious after beating an opponent. I also read that in an interview he did in the 90s, I'll try to dig it up. In that same interview he said Joe Frazier was a much better puncher with his left hand than him, and that he didn't think he could have beaten him around the time he defeated Ellis.

But best for me to see if I can find that stuff.

Foreman I think is a bit overboard with some of his praise. I remember he called Lewis the greatest heavy who ever lived after beating a spent Tyson...then only a couple of years later he put the great Louis at the top, with Lewis some notches down. His quote saying that he didn't want anything to do with Mike Tyson during his comeback is blatantly false, negotiations definitely happened, though it's still controversial whether Mike really wanted anything to do with Foreman. Seems to me Mike was veered off by something D'amato said about Foreman and swarmers, though the veracity of thiese rumors are currently in question. Suffice it to say I don't think Foreman had a chance against Mike in the late 80s, however I could see the George who fought Holyfield landing the big ones and taking out the post-prison Mike in 8. It's all about styles, Mike wasn't big on fighting backing up and Foreman had tools like the huge right uppercut to foil him coming in. Had Mike did his usual (watch the last round of the first Holy fight before the stoppage round), coming in wantonly with the right, Foreman would have made him go sleepy time. As it was, Holy never had the greatest right hand (though no feather-fist either), but when he caught Mike coming in Mike was mostly finished from that point on.

 

Pound for pound isn't real, just conjecture

Only a few men in history were on par or greater than that Tyson at that age

 

Thanks man, that is a good assessment! It seems a stretch that comback Foreman could have pulled it off, although it is possible, & in his prime I favor Big George.
Who is given to exaggeration & story telling, so unlike most boxers, he is too modest to trust on his own fight assessments, like claiming his legs were shaking during the face off with Frazier, lol!

 

Someone on this board (it might have been you) spoke of how ridiculous George was for saying that, because during the staredown George looked at Joe as though the latter owed him money lol!

 

This is a great post

 

Nice shout

 

This is true. Nice one man. Tyson's fights were can't miss spectacles.