What 3 Old Timers would give......

Because I believe, he did. I said, "Johnson to me was not active enough in terms of throwing punches, was too passive, and clinched too much to succeed in a modern era of boxing. He also had a shaky chin, but we hardly saw it because he clinched 2/3 of the round, and really was not in there vs quality prime fighters ( Guys who could be champion today ) on film. "

To review, he was KO'd by a super middle, knocked down by a middle with the only solid punch landed in the fight, TKO'd by Klonndike, nearly TKO'd by Jim Battling Johnson, TKO'd by Smith in a 4 round ex match, and some say down by a 156 pound Langford. I have not read every Jack Johnson report, but I will venture to say he was down more than this.

Which solid punch on film have you seen Johnson take? IMO, Johnson fought the way he did to protect his lack of durability.

To parallel, Wlad Klitschko also has a shaky chin, though if you ask me the guys who put him down hit harder than the guys who had Johnson down. However, because Wlad is so good, his chin doesn’t get tested. It does not; change the fact that is still shaky vs punchers.

 

What?

 

Johnson was stopped by Choynsky by a body shot ,Johnson was 21 and not yet mature physically.Choynsky is acknowledged as a terrific puncher ,no chin issues there as it was a BLOW TO THE STOMACH.If the knockdownin the Ketchel fight was on the level ,[which is in doubt]Johnson jumped u[p immediately and kod Ketchel who was also a terrific hitter,good enough totwice ko the Lightheavyweight Champion O Brien.Johnson was not nearly tkod by Jim |Johnson ,he broke his wrist in the third round , there were no chin issues there.Johnson was not tkod by Smith,andit was not an exhibition
match,they were sparring and Smith caught Johnson with a good ojne and knocked him into the ropes ,he never went down ,took a count or any such thing,IT WAS A SPARRING WORKOUT,Smith was Johnson's sparring partner for the Ketchel fight ,an account of this fight can be read in "IN THIS CORNER",a taped interview with Smith explains what happened.Johnson was tkod by Klondike a hard hitter ,he was not floored.Johnson was NOT floored by Langford ,in fact he dropped Langford and gave him a hiding,a direct quote from Langford"he gave me the only real beating I ever took ,I take my hat off to him ,though iwas greatly outweighed".To summarise up to 1925,when he was 47 Jonson had 118 fights,he was stopped 3 times once from a body shot,once while on his feet ,and kod for the count only once ,when he was 37 and after 26 rounds ,by a giant who hit hard enough with his right hand to kill a man ,[Bull Young],this is in a fight that temeperatures were recorded at 105 degrees over 15 rds Johnson would have won.Frank Moran caught Johnson with his "Mary Ann" in their Paris fight,a fat untrained Johnson ,[221lbs ]just laughed at him.You know Langford didnt drop Johnson ,just as you know Johnson broke his arm against Jim Johnson,just as you know Smith didnt tko Johnson,I have proved that in 118 fights Johnson was only kod once from a blow to the chin,and I have proved my point.You are back to your old tricks Mendoza,but never mind as long as I'm on this forum,I will happily correct your obfuscations,and agenda led falsehoods.Wlad Klitschko is a bad comparison to Johnson,he has been knocked out twice by punches to the chin in half the amount of fights Johnson had,Wlad is chinny and shits himself when attacked he is a deeply flawed fghter wth some skills ,a terrific physique, good power,but with a weak mental make up,he lacks confidence,is not a natural fighter,when he is tagged he falls to bits.Shame really as he seems a very nice man ,but nice guys often finish last,don't they?

 

Gun Boat Smith ,Johnson's sparring partner for the Ketchel fight stated the knockdown was a fake,as was the fight,Johnson agreed to carry Ketchel for the distance ,for the benefit of the movie cameras,there are tow ways to look at it Ketchel in connivance with his Manager Willus Britt ,doublecrossed Johnson and tried for the ko,or the Knockdown was staged and Johnson fell as the punch reached ,him,watch the fight closely and make up your own mind ,a good print of the fight does seem to indidcate that Johnson was falling as the punch lands.ONE IMPORTANT POINT,THE PUNCH LANDS ON THE SIDE OF JOHNSON'S HEAD,NOT HIS CHIN,so even if the blow was legit,and Ketchel hit hard enough to drop most anybody,Johnson was not floored by a punch to the chin.

 

It was a blow to the temple. No doubt here. And Johnson was 23 with at least 25+ bouts under his belt. No excuses.

O'brien was not a tough guy at all. In fact, if you could catch him, you could hurt him.

Ah, but the news review says Johsnon was almost TKO'd in round ten. The fight was scheduled for 20 rounds. Johnson quit in 10.

He was out, and his manger saved him. I posted the review here.

Johnson was floored by Klondike. The Langford fight a bit of a mystery if there was a kd scored by Langford.

Another myth is the heat in Cuba. The weather archives never recorded such a high tempeture...in April.

When the topic is Johnson, you are often incorrect. I have showed you this many times. You simply will not embrace the truth. If you want to start a separate thread on the issues here, be my guest.

 

One guy who would definitely transcend eras is Young Griffo.

Like Roy Jones he had reflexes like a rattlesnake to the extent that he didnt need fundamentals. Even good technical boxers just couldnt land on him.

He would probably have made any featherweight from any era however technicaly good look clumsy.

In summary I will suggest that any great fighter who tore up the rule book and fought with a unique style in their own era would probably do it in another-

Bob Fitzsimmons

Terry McGovern

Jack Johnson

Jimmy Wilde

 

I have rechecked the Choynsky fight you are correct Johnson was 23,the fight was stopped by the intervention of the Texas Rangers with Johnson on the floor ,Choynsky stated Johnson would not have been able to get up,before a count of ten ,and since Johnson allways said Choynsky was the hardest hitter he met I would beleive him,it was a punch to the temple ,I WAS WRONG,still not a shot to the chin was it? I have read several books on Johnson none of them say he was floored by Klondike,,and all of them say the temperature in Havana for the Willard fight was over 100 degrees. BY the way ,Choynsky after the fight with Johnson said,"They told me Johnson was a novice,when they asked me to fight him.He's no novice.The novices are the experts that didn't recognize that this boy is a coming Champion""Jack Johnson And His Times "by Finis Farr.The story that Langford put Johnson down was put around by Joe Woodman ,Langford's manager,it was a lie which he later admitted.Smith never kod Johnson ,in fact Johnson never went down he went halfway through the ropes,as can be read in a taped interview with Smith,and he should know.

 

What's the difference if it was on the chin or on the head? Point is he was down and hurt from a punch to the head. If it was on the chin he probably wouldn't have gotten up at all. He also didn't get right up, I haven't seen any good quality footage, but from what footage I have seen, he was down for about 6 seconds. I doubt the fight was a fix, Ketchel was getting really ****ed up, bleeding and knocked down several times, and he was also clearly trying to KO Johnson with some of his wild swings.

 

I feel like an idiot now.

I didn't read the thread properly...the part about it being a heavyweight.

Greb may not have been the best choice!

 

Did you miss Johnson staggering Ketchel and catching him before he falls,he holds Ketchel up on two occasions.Have you seen the whole fight?As said Ketchel probably double crossed Johnson and went for the ko,the punch landed behind Johnson's ear.Johnson never tried to stop Ketchel,till the knockdown,imo,and he did not appear hurt to me,when he arose he went straight into Stranley and kod him.The point I made was in 118 fights Johnson was stopped 3 times,once by the intervention of the Texas Rangers ,while he was on the floor ,and probably unable to beat the count ,once by tko and once when he was 37 after 26 rds of fighting,I dont think that constitutes a shaky chin.You have your opinion ,I have mine ,but I can't see how anyone can watch the Ketchel fight and not be aware Jack is carrying Stanley.

 

Jack Johnson
James Jeffries
Sam Langford (In a time when Ruiz became a champion, Langford's busyness, skills and power would cause plenty of trouble from a man accustomed to fighting larger men.)