What active fighters are ATG's in your opinion?

I don't think he did deal with adversity well in the first Castillo fight. Other than round 11 when Floyd dug his heels in and fought in the pocket, I thought he lacked ideas, lacked spirit and lacked firepower. Although I scored it 115-113 JLC, it was one of those 'close but clear' fights, I genuinely can't see how a Floyd win could have been given fairly. Castillo was the better man over the 12. Dealing with adversity well would have been adapting and changing the course of the fight, but Floyd didn't manage to do that. He coped with adversity that night, because he didn't wilt and get stopped nor did he lose heart and ship rounds leading a clear UD for JLC, but I don't think his performance can be termed dealing with it well. Had he fought for the last third of the fight the way he did in round 11, using speed, skill and surprising toughness in the pocket and outfighting Castillo and been the one who deserved to edge the decision, I'd say he dealt with a difficult fight and a difficult opponent well, but running, flicking punches, and generally not having big rounds where he was clearly ahead or building towards something is just coping with adversity IMO.

He won the rematch fair and square though. It wasn't a stellar, virtuoso performance, but it was a comfortable win.

My own take on it is that Floyd just about sneaks ATG status even now, before the comeback has begun. I'm not a huge fan, but he was one of the very, very best super-featherweights ever IMO, has carried weight well through a few divisions, and on his best nights was a great fighter.

Is he overrated? Yes. The zero, the slickness, the self-produced propaganda, all of these things contribute to that. Had Floyd faced a better standard of comp above 135 (Tszyu, Mosley, Williams etc), he would either have proved to be the elite boxer his fans think he is and thus deserving of a place alongside Whitaker and Jones as the best of the last 20 years, or he could've incurred a loss or two and we would've seen what I suspect has always been true - he was a great fighter like Mosley or Toney, but not invincible when put against someone wielding physical advantages over him.

As of now, we don't know because he never secured fights with the best from 140-147. If fights with Pacquiao and Mosley happen who knows though, he could be climbing everyone's ATG rankings and a lock even in the eyes of the haters.

 

I would say absolutely. He is one of the top 154 pounders ever.

To me ATG means can they hang with the best ever in their divisions?
Winky is a tough fight for anyone 154-160

 

Yet you didnt give round 4 to FMJ, and that was 1 of his best rounds of the fight :huhPlus you gave JLC the 10th,8th which both were good FMJ rounds (points should be taken off after a round is scored). Plus the 3rd could have gone the other way.

I don't have a problem with someone giving it to JLC but saying it was close but clear to JLC is clearly BS, his only ultra clear rounds he won were 6,7,12 because he was missing so much. As it is he was claiming to be carrying an injury and won the rematch clearly

 

I don't think the 4th was one of his best rounds at all. The 3rd could have gone either way - and I'm sure I had it a 10-10 even though Lederman had it for Castillo, so what is your problem with that? I don't remember the 8th and 10th specifically, but I am confident and comfortable with my scoring. Unlike you, I wasn't looking for ways to award the round to a specific fighter, I was scoring it as I seen it.

This 'missing so much' thing is a fantasy you have dreamt up in your head, that wasn't the case at all. Castillo consistently did excellent bodywork all through the fight, and managed to land some eye-catching clean headshots over the course too. Although I am not an advocate of Compubox, their numbers verify this.

As I said, I had a 2-point margin of victory, close but clear. I don't see why that's such an outlandish statement unless you are biased. Many, many people thought the same, including Lederman and Merchant. Saying 'close but clear' does not imply that I thought it was a comfortable or emphatic win, but merely a deserved one. A Mayweather win was an injustice IMO, especially with those appalling scores.

Yes, he was claiming to have an injury. If the injury was bad enough, he would have quit or wouldn't have been able to fight. He fought on, punching with both hands at a high workrate, and he lost IMO. I wouldn't write the injury off nor say it was dreamt up to justify being outfought for the first time in his career, but by the same token it doesn't exonerate him completely from being outfought. And he did win the rematch, but again it doesn't detract from the fact that the zero should really be a one.

 

1. Close but clear imply's that fight is a definite 7-5 or better for JLC and there is no way it can be scored to FMJ, in FMJ-JLC 1 there were many very close swing rounds that potentially could go either way, rounds 3,5,8,10 are scored differently by many people because of their closeness. I personally thought 10 was a better FMJ round than 11 but many give that round to JLC. Many people give the first 5rounds to Mayweather and JLC himself said he needed to start earlier in the rematch.

Anyway the only way you can give it to JLC is if you give him his most of these swing rounds and his 6,7,9,12 he won clearly, actually I'm not sure about 9 I forget that round. JLC did not win or draw round 4 though, clear round for FMJ and JLC probably did better in all those swing rounds.

I don't buy the compubox because compubox is human and I think Castillo rarely landed to the head, he did get in some quality body shots, but there was allot of elbow blocking too, there wasnt many shots that didnt get a part glove or part elbow on them. FMJ landed ultra clean when he threw his

Bottom its a close fight and some people saw it for JLC some for FMJ, some had it a draw. The robbery is a myth though but the cards were off (most fights have cards that are off if we analyse)

2. Maybe it was an excuse but he was complaining about his shoulder in the corner and Roger told him to such it up and fight, plus he did switch to southpaw, which he'd never done before/after that I remember (bar Shamba Mitchell)

 

I had Mayweather sweeping the first 5 rounds of Castilio I.

 

ATG for sure:
Bernard Hopkins (If he is considered active)
Marco A. Barrera (^)
Erik Morales (^)
Rafael Marquez (^)
Israel Vazquez (^)
Evander Holyfield (^)
Roy Jones Jr.
James Toney
Shane Mosley
Floyd Mayweather
Manny Pacquiao
Juan Manuel Marquez

Probably not quite an ATG:
Ricky Hatton
Wladimir Klitschko
Vitali Klitschko
Vernon Forrest
Winky Wright
Jose Luis Castillo
Chris John

Too soon to tell:
Miguel Cotto
Kelly Pavlik
Super 6 tourney fighters
Andre Berto
Joshua Clottey
Amir Khan
Joesph Agbeko
Fernando Montiel
Yuriorkis Gamboa
Tomasz Adamek
etc...

 

WORD!!!! :good

For me Gayweather's status is still an open question. Sure he is a extremely gifted fighter, one of the best of his generation, but he still has to prove that he can deal with Pacman, Mosley, JMM, etc.

Hopefully, in one year from now we will know per sure if Gayweather is a true ATG, or just another HBO golden boy

 

thats a solid pick Marquez definitly deserves it

Great points Janitor.

Definitly the top guys will be hailed highly, like Moore and pep but maybe not as high.

The lesser fighters might have a following but they will still be lesser fights.

Walcott has a following as he was an obviously good fighter with a good skill set. I dont see Tarver getting the same respect

 

I think my qualifications for ATG is probably a little more stringent than most here.

But for right now,

Roy Jones easy
Evander Holyfield solid
Floyd Mayweather solid
Manny Pacquaio on the cusp



Keith

 

I'm not sure if beating Marquez will really do much for Mayweather's ATG status. I know due to weigh-in rules and certain fighters (Mayweather) lack of weight cutting that weight class differences don't always mean the same as they used to, but still, Mayweather's been fighting welterweights and bigger since 2005 (even Hatton won a world title at 147). Marquez has been fighting featherweights, junior lightweights, and just recently, lightweights.

Pacquiao has shown he can perform at a high level at higher divisions, and Mosley's the consensus #1 WW, so I agree with those two being potential big wins for Mayweather's all-time ranking, but I don't know about Marquez really meaning much.

I suppose if it goes as predicted, Marquez will be a solid win for PBF, but no "career-definer".

 

i don't now how that works. Pac's beaten better opponents and say what you want about DLH and Hatton when they fought Pac, but he beat them more impressively than Mayweather. Not to mention more titles in more weight classes.

The only thing that Mayweather has is the "0" and skill level, which is balanced out by Pacquiao's greater wins.

at the very LEAST, they're on the same level.

But didn't you say harada wasn't a top 100? :huh :huh

 

James Toney and the "K" brothers.............
:yep

MR.BILL

 

I place a major emphasis on time they spend at the top of any division, and time they spend at in the pound for pound rankings. Mayweather has been at or around the top for 10 years, Pacquaio about 6 or 7.

I have Pac man spending three years at the top of the Featherweight division, 1 year at lightweight and 1 year at jr welter.

I have Mayweather with 4 years at Jr. Light, 2 at light, and 1 at welter.


If Pac man beats Cotto, and spend another year or two on top of his game, he will surpass Mayweather.

Win quality has been about equal.

And yes, both are SIGNIFCANTLY better and higher than Harada, who seems to have quite a fan club in this forum.


Keith

 

Unless he losses :yep