I am interested in opinions in how much better than their weight men are in basic, generally size correlated abilities such as taking a punch & how hard one can hit. A comment about the chin of Hagler vs. Morrison had me wondering. It was said Tommy had a bad chin, but I think it was just bad for a world class boxer, otherwise average. Hagler had among the very best ever at MW. Who would absorb a punch better-comment about whether you have Morrison as an average HW chin first-him or Hagler, assuming they received the same force & number of blows. And whether Hagler, LaMotta, Greb...Whoever you feel had the best chin ever... How much more in pounds would you have to go up until they had the chin of a hypotehtically exactly AVERAGE man? Since for years now they have allowed re-hydrating, & HWs have gotten bigger-do NOT use divisions. What weight would they do as well with punch resistance as an average pro fighter? Same for punching power. I assume that in percentage terms, the lightest guys (who are loutliars) may have the biggest gain...and clearly when you approach HW it is a law of dominishing returns. I recall an S.I. article comparing Olympic teammates in a PSI punch force test, & a guy in a very light division hit harder than everyone up before 156 lbs. I think that these basic abilities, unlike other things that are more trainable, & either harder old schhool work, or modern technology training & nutrition, likely are pretty consistent throughout the eras. With the exception that a rehydrated guy, or one who has more muscle but a smaller frame than someone of the same weight, may hit a bit less hard. Feel free to say who you think is tops in these categories. But if it is a SHW & there are not guys much bigger to compare them to, that is not really relevant. Is Julian Jackson your man? If so, he hit as hard as the average pro at what, 190, 210...? Would you say that perhaps Jackson hit about as hard as Foster in absolute terms, just a little better p4p? Thank you!
Not one man on earth could give you the exact equation, those variables are what makes boxing so exciting.
You're asking way too many questions for 1 thread and there are far too many variables. Even if i tried to give an answer 50% would be pure speculation, 10% would be based on actual scientific and boxing knowledge, and 40% would be out of my ass.
You are an excellent poster GSC. I do not expect any answer to be scien-terrific. People can address what they like, but basically I want the impression of what is the rough maximum of weight BEYOND what a boxer is, that they could reach an average ability they care to comment on, especially punching power & punch resistance. For example, use a particular in-ring weight, then site a specific someone you believe has among the very greatest power ever-like Julian Jackson. Or Fitz or Langford. Or the best chin P4P : such as Hagler. What weight-& what weight differential-would the average pro boxer need to be that these guys would be average in power or chin? So IF say you think Jackson had at least slightly more freakish power at 154 than anyone else (assuming he hit slightly harder at this weight than he did at MW, RELATIVE to the average boxer.... Then if his PSI force was tested...You think he would be AVERAGE for a pro boxer who weighs... 180? 195? 210? etc... Of course if he HIT someone who was bigger , they would not go down &/or out so easily. Just as Hagler could not take the punches of a SHW as well as against a Hearns or Mugabi. But while I think he would not have the size or punch to be nearly as EFFECTIVE against the elites moving up to LHW... Presumably just his BEARD was as good as...What, the average 200 lb.. fighter? And I am sorry it was confusingly organized, I was also musing about an example, Tommy Morrison... As 'roided 220 or so. His size, especially neck & to some degree head, must help him dissipate some force of blows. I speculated he had an average chin-lower at world-level---> & wondered hoe Haglerf could handle the exact same # iof shots landed the same way as happened to him. I would think Morrison is at least a little better in chin in ABSOLUTE terms, no? Thanks for your patience everyone.
Size matters and the laws of physics count but so does heart, stamina, speed, etc. There's also a point where excess size will give you negative returns, that of course varies for each and every fighter.
I agree completely with both points Wass. But I am asking for personal opinions about how much better power or a chin can be than expected at a certain size. What level do the very best guys get to...What greater weight would a pro fighter who is decent at punching power & resistance need to be at to be no longer an immense hitter or unstoppable, but AVERAGE in these qualities. My guess is it is ~40 lbs. Maybe 20% more, say a 160 lb. guy compared to a 200 lb. man. The smaller guys, they would maybe have the same weight differential, which would mean a greater percentage difference. Those in the HW range would never FIND a level where the average much bigger man could match them. Shavers is considered by some the hardest puncher ever-not skill, landing, combinations... And even those who do not agree, few would say the average + 40 lb. SHW (which would be 250), hit as hard as him. Same as that other ~ 210 man, Chuvalo. Few if any boxers of any size exceeded his chin.
Like I said not one man on earth could answer you that. Each individual is different so how can you begin to fathom it? There's so many variables it's unreal.
Many people could answer this, & I said I do not not expect that it can be scientifically delineated. Also of course everyone is different-I am asking specifically about the outliars. How much better than their weight the very top hitters & chins were. But beyond opinion, you can compared & triangulate many ways, such as look at how well Hearns hit relative to his division-assuming he gained at least a little power each time moving up, & judge the power he had (considering not landing skill & volume, but effect of punches thgat land well vs. guys of various sizes...And decide how hard he might have hit at 154 *compared* to an average pro at what weight? And see how Hagler took his punches at 160, & figure if Hearns hit as hard as an average man at "X" weight...How much more weight would a man need to be to have Hagler show average punch resistance? For example, you might judge Hearns to have hit as hard at 160 as an average man at 185. If so, you might say that Hagler took that pretty well, but guestimate that he would only have an average chin IF he was fighting 200 ponders.
For the most part it's speculation and guesswork. There are empirical examples where there is a significant weight difference between fighters, and the impact this has on their relative attributes as compared to when they fight someone of a similar size. They are rarer and rarer though in the modern game. When Chris Eubank fought Carl Thompson, he moved up two weight divisions, and although there was only a few lbs difference on the scales it was alleged (by Thompson) that Eubank had weights in his socks to push his weight up. Either way, there was clearly a big size difference between the two in the ring. Thompson was regarded as a big puncher at cruiserweight, and stopped several world-class cruiserweights including a young David Haye. However, he struggled to put a dent in Eubank, who despite being the smaller man seemed every bit as granite-chinned as he was at 160 and 168. The accumulation of punches seemed to take more out of Eubank though, and he was on the brink of exhaustion in the first fight and was stopped due to swelling in the second. It's a safe assumption that Eubank's chin above his natural weight class wouldn't turn to "average" despite the extra weight. Mickey Walker's chin held up well at heavyweight. In his good years, only a freakish puncher like Schmeling was able to make the extra weight count. Just one example, and due to the number of variables there will be some that prove and disprove any hypothesis you want to put forward. I'm inclined to think though that punch resistance for example goes a lot deeper than weight, and that the likes of Hagler and LaMotta had physical gifts that would not be dulled significantly by fighting much bigger men.
Well a 117Ib Billy Murphy KOed a 13 stone (182Ib) Moari. IIRC the even smaller Wilde KOed similar sized people in booth fights. If you are talking about the average nonboxer then the weight difference would need to be stupidly large.
I'll try to answer here. If by average you mean a man that's not a professional boxer, then a guy like Hagler would have a chin better than just about anyone, including men that walk around at an in shape 230lbs...barring the usual extreme outliers that tend to exist. If you mean average as in the average fighter, then Marvin could probably survive the shots of a low tier journeyman heavweight if he wasn't getting caught too regularly. If he stepped up to the level of a Kevin McBride then he'd find himself in trouble due to the physical limitations. A guy like Tommy Hearns would be in the same boat as far as who he could hurt. He'd likely be able to hurt low level heavyweights but would have trouble bothering guys at even journeyman level. As many fighters who have competed at the top have said, everyone at the level hits hard. Paulie Malignaggi is known for being a light puncher, yet he could lay out just about any average guy who is the size of a heavyweight. There used to be a show called Pros vs Joes, and smaller dudes like Pernell Whitaker and Arturo Gatti easily played with dudes way bigger than them and weren't even close to be harmed. To get to a level in boxing where you're even being discussed it means that you have abilities far greater than your average person.
